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As the title says, when was the last L42A1 rifle withdrawn from unit service in the MoD?
Years ago I remember seeing an advert in Gun Mart (I think it was) for the "last serving Lee Enfield rifle" and the advert was allegedly for a .303" No.4 which had been aboard a Royal Navy ship. I'd have thought the last Enfield rifles on general issue were L42s, though?
The last Lee Enfields....... There are still thousands of No8's in service still. Plus the occasional L59 DP No4 where Cadet Forces wish to retain them for reasons best known to themselves. That rifle you mention that was supposedly on a ship turned out to be a total load of twaddle too. They maintained that it had come from the Endurance where it was the line throwing rifle. But the Stores Officer from the Endurance was able to state that the line throwing rifle that he had on the ship and was responsible for was a special L1A1 that he distinctly remembered.
The very last service, full bore Lee Enfield in service that was still accountable and on the WOCS books as such was, believe it or not, a No1 Mk3 that is now at the Small Arms School at Warminster. But some still question this fact.......
We also had the very last two L42's that were in service too. They came to us from Ordnance in Germany in approx 2002 or so (I have the exact date somewhere) together with the confirming paperwork etc etc but it was well after the Ordnance stockpiles had been disposed of. The second L42 and CES was gifted to the NZ Army museum at Waiouru where someone 'ringed' it by putting in a fake and taking the real one. Sad but true
Peter just a question with regards to these particular type of rifles like say the M40's, M82, L42's, L96 and so on through the gambit of the older rifles why won't the MoD for that reason Australia as well release them to the private market I mean to say its not as if the L42 is the today state of the art sniper system there are plenty of privately built rifles on the market with 1/2 MOA capacity out there. As the forum has members I am sure that would dearly like to purchase a piece of history in fact it would be good to see what value they put on those 2 rifles they might have been surprised selling them but I guess some one some where made a ruling..........
I'm afraid recouping some of the taxpayers money spent on these items has nothing to do with it.
Don't ask me Cinders....... They just don't want them out there! The official explanation given for the L42's was that due to their age and that they'd come to the end of their second life and with the (then) recently withdrawal of the old Crown Immunity, they had to be sold offshore.
Someone said that recently, it was all to do with a UN directive regarding arms sales by governments
I dont know how severe the anti gun mentality is in the UK but here stateside there was a total chit storm over police departments selling off thier old service guns to the public. also over the sale of unclaimed guns and guns confiscated from criminals. The storm was at its peak when an x service fire arm, pistol, was later used in some crime. HILLARY'S HELLIONS accused the police of not caring about crime and the public. Accused the police of supplying guns to criminals. Actually profiting from crime and a few other rediculous accusations. The guns were sold lawfully and in complete compliance with the existing laws. Laws the democrats them selves enacted. Go figure. Locally our own police department has a cache of guns that were coming up for auction to local FFL dealers. When Obama came on board just about every police department stoped the sale of thier aquired guns because they were demonized by the press and worried about the image should any one of these fire arms fall into the hands of a criminal and be used in a crime. Some departments actually destroyed thier own guns to placate the Democrats and the press. During the natioal socialist era in Germany a word was invented to desribe the act of cutting off your own testicals to assure your opponent you do not pose a threat to them, whats that word? i dont know but you get the idea.
any way others, more pragmatic, decried the waste of tax payers money and for the most part it was stopped. but eight years later many caches of guns held by police are still in limbo. In the UK I'll bet they were dumped in the sea.
Back during the first Clinton Regime about 600k M1 rifles and carbines were comming back to this country from Korea. Supposed to go to the CMP by law. Clinton slipped a law into the books not allowing these weapons to come in. Bush allowed the law to stay on the books.
supposedly....according to rumor, there are still many m1 rifles still in the navy inventory, all rebarreled in 308. Supposedly.
Dumping anything at sea isn't allowed now. They will be destroyed by mutilation, in accordance with their obligations under the various international treaties on the Arms Trade.
A couple or so years ago one of the U.K. dealers was selling L59 D.P. No4 rifles which had also been U.K. deactivated, almost like a double deactivation. These were being sold in stripped down form so to speak so that you didn't get a complete rifle. You basically got the receiver/barrel assembly together with the bolt and trigger guard and that was pretty much it. I decided to purchase one because I had used them in the cadets and the hardest part to find was a magazine at an affordable price. I enjoyed building it up into a complete item again although I have not painted the white bands around the stock with "D.P." or put the cut-outs in the woodwork.
I was under the impression that the L42A1 was removed from active service in 1992 and replaced by the L96A1. Were the arms referred to above post 1992 just arms that had not been disposed of or were they in active service?
Working off of memory here but I seem to recall around 1993~94 Navy arms imported something like 637 L39A1 and L421A1 rifles, in both complete and incomplete form, so they were getting rid of them in 1993~1994. In 1999 was when the sales of military surplus bolt actions was stopped in the UK and they went to destruction of the rifles. I recall reading a UN report posting of the arms they destroyed in 1999 and 2000. The arms destroyed in 1999 and 2000 included .22 cal Enfield rifles. That would mean any left in the system by 1998 will never get out.
In the US there are many police agencies that still sell off there surplus arms, typically to distributors in partial payment for new department arms. Phoenix distributors, Birmingham pistol parlor and a firm in Texas that I cannot recall the name of at the moment are the big ones I recall. Pistols, self-loading rifles, revolvers and some sniper rifles san scopes. I know a chap (lawyer from a police family) who kind of collects such stuff if he can identify the agency, has some neat arms he did not pay all that much for.
Not only police arms, but any National Guard DE&MA arms that are state owned and not title 2 have been sold commercially. An example would be the 870 shotguns from Kansas NG and the Stevens 69RH shotguns from Arizona which showed up a few years ago.
For Federal arms (which includes most NG guns and all federal agencies), none get out unless:
1) They are .30 or .22 rimfire long arms (neither can have been full auto) those can be sold through the CMP to individuals.
2) They are supplied to a police agency, which cannot transfer them to any other entity. Eventually returned to Feds for destruction.
3) Rare arms can be transferred to museums under some program.
All other arms are eventually sent to Anniston, where they are destroyed by captain crunch. Every single part other than small pins or screws must be de-milled. In the last decade a lot of very early AR15/XM16E1 rifles (models 602, 603, 604) have been destroyed that way.
Ron,Quote:
Originally Posted by CINDERS
I'm afraid I'm old school. The L42 is, in my book still up there with the best of them, even though it is tired like the rest of us as we get older. It doesn't have to prove itself anymore. It has served us well and continues to do so right across the world with many countries sniper teams.
However, apply the Marksmanship Priniciples, and everything you have learnt on a course I feel matching like for like would open a few eyes even today, if put up against the L96.
Just because it is a newer "in service" system, doesn't make it "superior" I'm afraid IMHO.
Take away the Gucci stock and a few minor improvements, you are still left with a basic bolt action rifle, which is fast being superceded.
It had a dismal start to life in service, and thank God it wasn't my decision to continue with it, as I would have dropped it like a hot potato.
Yes there will be those who say I am talking out of my rear end as I bang my drum about the M85 again marginally losing out to it, but as I only deal with facts, and we all have a rear end, I am entitled to my opinion, I am left with no other view I'm afraid, that one alone IMHO destroyed PH as we knew it, who put so much into the weapon.
So in short.............give me my L42 or Enforcer or indeed my M85 anyday;)
Incoming!!!
Regarding military sniper rifles I realize the taxpayer buys them just they are retired from service I guess the services are none to concerned about re-couping any monies for them, it brings to mind the thousands of rounds of MkVII ball ammo the Army had dumped in a deep trench off Rottnest Island years ago never heard if any 303 rifles made the deep six trip with the ammo but would not surprise me.
I probably could not afford an M-40, M-82 or such anyway costs nothing look, I still have my P H rifle and it will do me.
I'm not sure of any other nation using the L42 Gil (thread 10, para 1).
The Enforcer - as issued - with that flimsy, mechanically unsound front mount was simply not rugged enough for service life in my opinion. Can you seriously imagine an Enforcer being trundled around in a 432/APC or container dropped? Nope, nor can I. Nor did Major George Shears the project officer. He deemed it suitable for the Police, but not the Military.
Just my opinion of course
I would love an L42, my favourite Enfield to shoot, but I simply can't justify the outlay.
I have to make do with my poor mans 1903A4 build, she's an A3 rebuilt to A4 spec with a Lyman Alaskan scope (standing in for a Mk84), when I finally get the bedding right on the Keystone "C" stock, she should shoot very well.
Still, half the fun and satisfaction is in the journey of discovery (for us non armourers) in making these things shoot well. Sorry to trundle off topic guys..
Peter,
I saw a "Police" lad in India last year with an L42 and was actually allowed to handle it, (I wish I'd noted the number) after I quizzed him as to why he had it and not the Army. He said the Army naturally devolved them to the Police. I also remarked on an earlier thread that they also had SLR's in abundance which did replace the Lee Enfield stocks, all still bearing UK Armourers snow pake numbers on the butts:lol:.
That brings me onto the matter in hand. Police scoped shooters will always be at best marksman in my book and Army scoped shooters Snipers no more no less I'm afraid.
Difference between a Mini and a Rolls Royce IMHO
L42's in India....... Quite staggering......... unbelieveable! They disposed of their No4T stocks and telescopes many years ago. And the almost scrap, stripped-for-spares condition of the telescopes and some of the rifles was eye watering. I rebuilt 70 from the remains. Quite how they would maintain the L1A1teles when from my limited experience, they were already well and truly worn out and spare parts were always 'dues-out' defeats me.
It seems to me that the further north and the further south you get, the relevant Police Commissioners have their own law with regards to weapons. It is a basic system they run there, and I suppose if a lad is exceptional with an old rifle they appear to let him run with it should have asked a few more questions.
Not sure what the below image is all about though, cricket helmets to boot, looks like riot control of sorts:madsmile:
How their Police, transport "Loaded" weapons to the provinces. Look for the British Marked (snowpaked) SLR's slung over the shoulders in the video.
This probably does them an injustice, but there are a bucket full of training issues with this short film, and reflects the state of things there. I'm afraid they would all be jailed if I was IC weapons party:
Insas Rifles of Indian Police force - YouTube
Lots of long L1A1 bayonets on show but none with old leather type scabbards - so far as I could see. Plenty with butt numbers too but I didn't see anyone with an L42 though.
:lol: that was just a bit of footage to highlight how bad things are there, and far from consistant across the Indian Continent, as they await their new or latest rifle!!!.
I am trying to get the serial number of the one I saw and perhaps a photo of its current "user"so we can perhaps trace its lineage if thats the right word.;)
Somewhat lax in their safety drills thats for sure, all piled up with magazines! Are there any L1A1's in the video, all I can see are Ishapore 1A1's and a few SMG's (I am on my phone though).
Pretty sure SMLE's are still carried by the police out in the sticks, certainly were only a few years back.
I would dispute L42's being on issue in India. I would speculate there might be a few there but the low number of total production, (1080), is proof they didn't make it into service as a standard issue sniper rifle anywhere except the MoD. Could the one you saw there Gil possibly have been converted from an existing Indian issue No.4T? I suppose anything is possible with the Indians. We always guessed that after their hard service On Her Majesty's Service, the rifles that weren't culled for scrap were all purchased by Charnwood Ordnance and Navy Arms. As Peter mentioned, they had to be exported so came to Canada and the USA. Many were returned too, mostly from Canada so they could legally go on the UK market. I exported them to Canada, England and New Zealand in small quantity. Also guessing that half of the original production were relegated to scrap over time in service. I had over 60, the majority directly purchased from MoD disposals at Donnington by Charnwood Ordnance. Some of those were very tired from being run through course after course in a the sniper training role. I'm proud to have put them all right with lots of help of course! I hope they're all getting some range time to keep them happy!
Seeing the bit of film footage of the Indian Police at the station, I didn't see one police officer check a weapon to see if it was safe when he picked it up. Not a great advert for the Indian Police and in a very public place.
Brian,
Definately etched as an L42A1 but more than that it looked absolutely correct. As you will appreciate, its a different world, and they don't like people touching their property, especially when loaded. I asked him if it was clear before he handed it to me, and he said yes!!!!
I pulled back the bolt and there I saw a solitary round, that was it in the mag. He didn't like me doing that at all.
Really that was enough for me, and the reason why I put the video up, as they are in hell of a state, they really haven't got a clue, which is very sad, as the SLR isn't an easy piece of kit to get your head round without proper training.
This is what happens when "we" train a small team to a high standard in the UK, they then in turn "cascade" their training and knowledge back in country, which as we all know dilutes the whole safety process, and it does become very unsafe.
They do have a lot of ND's and also injuries which they didn't want to talk about. The user of the L42A1 could see no problem with a round in the mag at all, as in his terms it was only he that would draw back the bolt.
There new weapon is in a mess too and it is very unlikely it will see service. Corruption abounds and things aren't right there at all.
He told me they had over 29,000 SLR's gifted to them by HMG which I was staggered to hear, but had no idea how many L42A1's were in service, he only knew it to be a sniper rifle.
It may have had a makeover at Isapore or whereever their factory is now, but it would have certainly made any of us look twice.
Janes world Armies makes no mention of India being equipped with L42's and that's pretty well on the button in that respect. Mind you, it doesn't mention the Police of course.
We just saw a snapshot of a group of cops moving off somewhere. Putting that into perspective, bear in mind that our cops have occasionally made mistakes with weapons too. Not just drills and ND's but shooting others too, even in classrooms and their colleagues on the ranges.
With an Army of X.x million against ours of c.80,000, we need to put those same drill errors, ND's and fatalities into perspective too.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Laidler
"Putting that into perspective, bear in mind that our cops have occasionally made mistakes with weapons too. Not just drills and ND's but shooting others too, even in classrooms and their colleagues on the ranges"
Two Police firearm related stories that I know of and come from a trusted source (involving the same force to remain unnamed).
A firearm left at a private range occasionally used for practice and more worryingly they only realised it was missing when the range owner phoned them following day after noticing it glinting in the morning dew still at the firing point!
Another rather embarrassing incident involved a holstered glock left in a public toilets... and handed in by a taxi driver (thank God a decent law abiding citizen came across it first)!
These are very rare incidents and preventative procedures were subsequently put in place to ensure it can't happen today I am relieved to hear.
Those are all Indian IA1 rifles (independently invented in India by the way). Notice the metric type metal end cap on the front of the butt stock.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gil Boyd
I would suggest that that is a colour party of some type heading off to a performance/ceremony.
Not a single spare magazine nor ammunition in evidence - likely none of the guns are actually loaded, and all are "known" to be un-loaded, having been previously checked, by "someone"...
I was taught that you must ALWAYS check a weapon to ensure it is safe when first picking it up and that some-one telling you that it is safe is simply not good enough.
I had an RFI 1A1 rifle many years ago. A very interesting rifle. A cross between an FAL and L1A1, I reckon they beat both FN and the RSAF out of the royalty payments!
The Mk4 Sterlings caught my eye.
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...sterling-1.jpg
My guess is the LEO on the right is a guard for the group and his Sterling is probably loaded.
I think WE all were...Quote:
Originally Posted by Flying10uk
---------- Post added at 05:35 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:27 PM ----------
1 piece firing pins,Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian Dick
Ex1/X8E1 single locking angle on the bolt and carrier (with sand cuts), Inch pattern extractor.
metric style front sight in a inch style gas block.
Inch pattern gas regulator & gas tube,
3rd model Metric butt stock,
Inch pattern hammer & trigger mech, & mag release.
metric(ish) barrel thread...
Just a note:
Make sure that if you are using an Indian bolt, you always use an Indian bolt carrier (and vice versa unless you have an Ex/X8/ EARLY Israeli bolt/carrier to mix match).
Got to love the 1A1, rather rough in build to say the least with some unique measurements (don't try fitting a Fal top cover, or a de-tabbed Inch pattern example, they jam solid)! I bet they are just as typically reliable up in the high Himalaya, the jungle or dessert as their cousins though!
Take on board lots of tales about Police mishaps here in the UK, but I would like to think noone this side of the pond would stack weapons up like that all loaded.
If they were for a parade, they clearly don't care what the wood work or cleanliness of the weapons were going to look like on the day!!
Sterlings with mags fitted:eek:
We will take that with a healthy dose of sarcasm as I am sure it was intended ... the 1A1 cross breed mutt, is the result of direct and total rip off of Fn's copyright's, perhaps by blending Metric and Inch design features they though they would get away with it!Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee Enfield
They didn't, were forced to eventually pay some money to Fn and place orders for inch pattern (and metric?) rifles as part of the agreed settlement.
That’s what we call “Open Carry” here.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gil Boyd
Don't forget quite a lot were sold in Germany by Frankonia.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian Dick
I'd guess Waffen Frankonia got a quantity from Charnwood Ordnance.
Would anyone know how many they got ? Brian you mentioned the condition that some were in could you be more specific? I remember DRP mentioning something similar.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian Dick
Only ask as one arrived on my doorstep last week, (Big thanks to Promo for that.)
I saw all of the L42's that Charnwood got from Dince Hill (who in turn got them from the MoD disposals). Charnwood had them all stacked up in their transit chests. NoBS Dave & I spent ages looking over them with Robert Hallam (Tony's son). I recall being told at the time that there was a total of either 380 or 385, although I know that other keen L42 enthusiasts believe there were rather less in the batch released. I must say I accepted the figure I was told & didn't count them all individually! There was certainly a shed load of them, & I didn't see any L39's, Enforcers or other heavy barrelled 7.62mm variants mixed in with them - they were all L42A1's.
They varied cosmetically but were all in need of TLC. There were a handful of exceptional rifles too. Mostly from from Robert Hallum's personal collection. I still have one of those, a 1975 conversion. I purchased the last 30 remaining that no one else wanted. It was a long project getting them all back up to snuff but well worth the effort. :thup:
Thanks Rog, the figure 380-385 was this all the rifles Dince Hill had ? or was this just the number supplied to Charnwood ?
To be honest Dukey I can't remember after all this time, but I'll see if I can find out - if Rob still remembers!
With the 300+ purchased/imported by Navy Arms, the number somewhere around 700 seems pretty plausible to me of 1080 produced. Another 300+ or so in the bin through attrition. All speculation of course.
Thanks Rog and Brian, it would I guess narrow it down to how many ended up in circulation, condition wise (as you have seen Rog) the one that arrived has had a hard life, having a quick look over again it has been donated parts from another L42A1, the fore-end carries the same bracket number that has been barred out also its the number in the tin.
I have an interesting one which allegedly took a direct hit on the action during the assault on Tumbledown Mountain in the Falklands War on the morning of the 13/14th June 1982 with a sniper in 2 Scots Guards.
I have through Military contacts tried to establish who the owner was, to find a bit more detail on that story, but it proved they were going to a lot of effort to bring them back on line even then, when it came back to the UK.
if anyone knows anyone who served in the 2nd Battalion Scots Guards Sniper Plt please PM me, as I would like to believe the tale;).
Incidently on a swift search I found this which again could be correct unless someone knows otherwise from an entry below:
Lee Enfield Rifle - Firearms s Military Interest Club
where it states by a Moderator of the Gentlemens Military Interest Club that the L42A1 carried on until 1992!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
In need of a sniper rifle chambered for the 7.62mm NATO cartridge, the British government approved the L42A1 Rifle in August 1970. The L42A1 rifles are essentially 7.62mm conversions of No. 4 “T-Model” rifles with shorter and wider fore-ends and shorter handguards. The L42A1 rifles use magazines which are similar to those of the L8 rifles. The L42A1 rifle remained in service until 1992.
Finally, in the mid-1970s, a non-firing drill purpose conversion of the No. 4 rifle was approved for use by cadets. Designated the Drill Rifle L59A1, this conversion amounted to rendering No. 4 rifles incapable of being fired by milling away portions of the breech, the action body, and the bolt and welding a plug into the breech. L59A1 rifles were converted from No. 4 Mk I, Mk I*, and Mk 2 rifles.
Moderator Gentlemens Military Interest Club
There is an L42A1 for sale on guntrader uk which seems to have been issued to Duke of Wellington Regiment
Looking for something to fill the chest, I found a post from another forum from 2007, which states, 627 rifles were shipped to Navy Arms........
I talked to Val Forgett in the mid 90's at the North Carolina Arms Collector's show of which he was a founding member and don't remember the exact figure but do remember him telling me that the shipment contained pretty much half and half L39A1 and L42A1 so we're in that 300 plus or minus figure of L42's imported by Navy Arms. He told me that it was the best deal he'd ever done in his surplus arms importing career. There were crates of flare pistols, stacks of white boxes containing Inglis No.2 pistols, L39A1's, L42A1's, No.4's of all descriptions from war reserve stores, most still in sealed wrapping and even a stack of S&W M1940 light rifles in like new condition. It was overwhelming and just a sprinkling of the shipment he got into his warehouse in New Jersey at the time. I bought quite a few rifles and pistols while supplies lasted. Wonderful stuff!