Type 99 without Serial number

I have been offered a type 99 that looks like it is early to mid war Kokura production. It has the AA style sights but no "wings" and has the monopod style barrel band but no monopod, The mum has been ground and the gun was apparently re-blued afterwards. There is no series marking or serial number on the receiver, just the Kokura arsenal mark. It doesn't look as if the number was ground it looks like it was not stamped in the first place. The bayonet lug on the front barrel band does not have any marking where the last 3 digits of the receiver number usually appear. The bolt looks like a mismatch the 3 digits at the root of the handle do not match those on the extractor but it is an early type with a chromed bolt face. There is a bayonet with it which is severely rusted (it was stored separately from the rifle). It also doesn't seem to have a makers mark or any serial number but does have a few markings on the handle that I've tried to picture. It is supposedly a veteran bring back but the present owner has no idea which branch of service or even when he served. I'd appreciate any insight on this piece.Attachment 74958Attachment 74957Attachment 74956Attachment 74959Attachment 74960Attachment 74961

Were the numbers polished off and then it was re-blued?

That's the way it looks to me. In the picture it looks like some kind of polishing or grinding wheel was taken to the serial number and along the line somewhere it was reblued. Honestly if a gun doesn't have a serial number the main action for most is to run away as you could get in trouble for having one like that.

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Originally Posted by burb1989

grinding wheel was taken to the serial number

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That's the way I can see it too.

I'd steer clear of it. I can only think of a couple of reasons for the serial number to be missing and none of them are good. I had a guy try to sell me this story with a Trapdoor Springfield. No serial, no sale.

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Originally Posted by Aragorn243

I'd steer clear of it. I can only think of a couple of reasons for the serial number to be missing and none of them are good. I had a guy try to sell me this story with a Trapdoor Springfield. No serial, no sale.

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Yeah unfortunately I have to agree here. I love these rifles but as a collector, serial numbers are a must. It's part of the history, part of the soul of the gun if I may.

Have you asked the present owner for an explanation for the apparent lack of a serial number and if you have what was the response, please?

For one thing, it's illegal to remove or alter a serial number in the US.

Really bad ju-ju with defaced firearm in US. Especially if they can lift the serial number and discover it has been stolen.

--fjruple

Just an interesting fact. A scrubbed serial number can still be retrieved if the scrubbing wasn't done deep enough. The powers that be have a process that can detect the compressed, displaced, whatever, steel under the stamped numbers. I forget if it was X-ray or chemical or what.

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Originally Posted by WarPig1976

The powers that be have a process that can detect the compressed, displaced, whatever, steel under the stamped numbers. I forget if it was X-ray or chemical or what.

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My father was welder by trade, and said they had done marking recovery just like that during his courses. He said to remove all trace of a stamped serial or marking a person would have to go surprisingly deep into the metal. I will have to ask him what process they used. I recall it may have been a chemical, I wonder if it was magnaflux or some other option?

Remember, many if not all of the post WW2 Yugo refurbished K98s had the original serial numbers removed as part of the refurbishment. This rifle could be something similar but, personally I would be ultra careful before buying it. I would want a plausible emanation from the owner for a start and I would also want to have the rifle closely examined by an independent expert.

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Originally Posted by Flying10uk

I would want a plausible emanation from the owner for a start and I would also want to have the rifle closely examined by an independent expert.

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Scrubbed Jap weapons aren't a "thing" are they?. It's simply not worth the trouble even if the vet who brought it home did the scrubbing. Others can be found easily with no worry of Federal time.

The Japanese didn't refurb their rifles or scrub serial numbers.

Warpig1976--

I have seen two methods for the recovery of serial numbers or markings. The first is a chemical process, the area where the serial was is polished to a mirror finish. An chemical acid is applied which brings up the serial number and quite readable. The second process is little more involved. The defaced area is milled flat and a very thin sliver of the area is milled off (about the thickness of thin paper) The thin sliver of metal is then cover in a blue ink. The metal is then examined under a microscope. The sliver can also be view in different type of light for better refection. The sliver can also be x-ray and then examined under a microscope. I have seen pretty deep serial numbers recovered. The last process is the most time consuming and expensive.

Cheers

--fjruple