Lee Enfield Questionables?

OK, Ran this by Doug and he suggested I just run it by you guys. The photos posted to him were too small to read any of the details. I am not sure if these will post any better, but can give it a go.

I have two rifles that I have managed to acquire in the not too distant past. They are two of my favorites. The stories behind them are unknown to me and the sellers didn't seem to have much information for me either.

One is a Savage built No.4. I enjoy these of course, because it was the US effort to assist with England's war needs in the early days of WWII. Plus, I have a Savage 110 that is my first and favorite hunting rifle. NOT fancy but very efficient and with a GREAT trigger that has never changed over decades of hunting with it. I have always liked Savage rifles. Good service for a good price.

The second (sorry, the photo order actually shows the MkIII first) is a MkIII that I have always been fond of due to my Grandfather's connection/participation as part of the AEF in WWI. Of course they carried '03's or some American rifle, but the MkIII has such a classic look and it is has the nicest lines of any of the versions to me. So when I found this one, even though I knew VERY little about how it came to exist, I wanted it. It has a gorgeous NEW stock and was apparently re-stoved and looks very much like a fresh MkIII, although I am sure the military issue did not have glossed stocks and polished brass butt plates. But the grain in this stock was so pretty, I could not resist. I expected the barrel to be all clapped out and it is fresh and clean as well?? How does a rifle like this come to exist? Were there rebuild programs in England, or would this have been done by private hands? Certainly skilled private hands. It does have an import mark on the right side, rear receiver by Century Arms, but they have been importing for a number of years, correct?

The Savage appears to have a stock addition at some point too. The grain is more course and open, but it is not unpleasing at all. The metal finish looks closer to being original. Almost all the proper parts are square S marked, so I am thinking it is closer to be "original" except for a new stock added at some point. The bore is very good and the trigger is superb! Bolt is like butter. Btw, the bolt on the MkIII appears to have been reblued or newly stoved as well and it is a little stiff compared to the Savage. It works fine, but requires a stiffer slap in both directions to make it move. The Savage can be manipulated with two fingers...like a woman who knows what she likes. :rolleyes:

Each of the stocks are numbered with what I THOUGHT might be manufacturing years, for the stocks themselves. They certainly do not match the production years of the guns. Or is it possible that the stocks numbers are merely manufacturers codes? The No. 4 has a homemade sling that was sewn onto the sling loops? I never bothered to remove, but might soon in order to put a proper Lee Enfield Sling on both of these beauties.

I will attach what I can. If you need more pics, let me know. Would love to understand these rifles a little better. Hope somebody may be able to shed some light.

Thank you kindly.

Savage used several different styles/sizes of their "S" marking on the No4 bayonets which they made. Some are within a box and some are not; the size of the "S" and, if present, the box also changed. Presumably these differing styles of "S" markings are also observed on their rifles as well?

Do you have concerns about these rifles or is it more of an "interest in their history" thing?

The wood on the #1 Mk3 looks like the new wood being produced in India I thin k it is, for the non standard rifles that we were just discussing a few threads back. Exactly like it... Looks nice though, and as you suspect, the rifle has been completely redone. The #4 is a good example of a service rifle, both are pretty clean looking. I'd cut that leather sling off and replace, and the aluminum screw has a simple story, Barney didn't have the correct one and cobbled it in. These guys will have a correct one if you ask and then you can change it up...along with the sling on the #4.

OK, the title for this thread has a red Fake?!. The rifles aren't fake, but they are quite a ways from being as issued, unaltered specimens. They've been redone/reworked. Collector value would be limited. Enjoy them for what they are.

I think that AmEngRifles deserves a prize for the number of photographs he's managed to squeeze into a single post. I did wonder if it would be worth replacing the woodwork on these rifles with some that hadn't been refinished. Both of these rifles look as if they need "un-tarting-up".

Thank you gentlemen. I am not a dedicated Lee Enfield follower and my knowledge is VERY limited, so it was more of a "What the heck are these?" sort of inquiry. I certainly knew they were not war surplus. But wondered if the No.1 Mk3 would have been refurbished like this in the UK, say before their centerfire ban went into effect and there were plenty of Lee Enfields in civilian hands? Guess the screw inquiry (better mind myself when I make the inquiry!) needs to be done in the marketplace?

Oh, and how did the barrel of the No1 get to this point and appear brand new? Replacements were available over the years I guess?

Had no idea that India had made new stocks. Were they intended for the commercial market in India or England or on the world market?

Do you think the Savage rifle was restocked at some point? I will take the advice and cut off the leather sling. Thanks!

Sorry about the quantity of pics. I do the same thing on my vacations!

Some correct bolt changes on the bands are all thats really required here, and they are easily picked up on many sites including "that" one.
Enjoy them as they are.

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Originally Posted by AmEngRifles

before their centerfire ban went into effect and there were plenty of Lee Enfields in civilian hands?

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Centre fire bolt action rifles haven't been banned in the UK. You may be thinking of semi-auto rifles above .22 calibre.

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Originally Posted by peregrinvs

Centre fire bolt action rifles haven't been banned in the UK. You may be thinking of semi-auto rifles above .22 calibre.

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Yes, Peregrinvs, your right, I was thinking predominanlty semi autos, but had thought the bolt actions were included. So is there still an active market in Lee Enfields? Too bad they don't allow bolt actuated L1A1's? Guess the L1A1's would be too easy to retro back into semi autos for the government to allow them.

Are there ample parts supplies for the Lee Enfield available in surplus shops or other sources in the UK? Has this generated a healthy market for bolt actions rifles of all countries? or has it become a mostly home grown supply of rifles? Apologies, I can generate a lot of questions in a very short space. lol.

First time I went to England, attended a Military show at Hop Farm. Not sure it was the War & Peace show, but it was a big one! Loads of displays and loads of parts. Believe this was 2006.
Bought several L4A1 mags and attempted to carry them in my carry-on when headed home. Actually, no problem leaving the UK, but upon inspection in Boston (which is NOT known as a gun friendly location in the US) I was still woefully ignorant that such parts had become a no go in airplane cabins. Almost got hauled off to jail. Had to pay for the carry-on to go under the plane. Judge let me off, but I am sure my name is flagged at Boston Logan.

I had not flown since 2001 at that point, and did not realize how touchy people were about simple gun parts. Was news to me. Of course it is much worse now. Don't think I would so much as carry any gun screw, spring or bit in a carry on. They (TSA and Guvment Officals) are just flat out paranoid. For me, having grown up in Florida, where there are practically NO restrictions, it is just "gun stuff", nothing sinister intended. I have gun stuff rattling around in my truck every day. Ammo too. Just never hardly give it another thought.

I almost made it to Henry Krank's last time I was in Yorkshire. Did make the Armouries, but never made Krank's. Next time I will. But will get them to ship anything I buy. They may not be able to due to stricter ITAR regulations now. Man, things are not like they used to be!

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While the No1 MkIII looks very new; it is no guarantee of accuracy! Have you tested it at the range yet?
I mention this because I bought a MkIII* with later (apparently BSA made) wood work fitted. Hopefully you will be luckier than I was!
The range test showed up some major issues with accuracy (6" spread at 50 metres). Not all due to the wood fit; but probably over 50% of the problem.
The fit (and clearance) of the wood to the receiver and barrel has to be exactly as original spec for it to work properly.
That means equal fit on the draws (recoil shoulder's) with the barrel sitting in the middle of the channel.
Correct contact under the knox form.
Correct up pressure from the sprung pad under the barrel at the muzzle;
No interference contact between fore end and barrel etc.

However all of this can be sorted, it took me a while and plenty of investigation before attacking the job. But it's gone form over 10 MOA to around 2MOA now.

Thanks 30Three. I have NOT shot the MkIII. I have shot the No.4. While I do not recall the No. 4's grouping, I do not recall it being anything alarmingly out of the normal.

Now, the MkIII was so pretty to me that I only bought it as a pretty wall hanger, that could be used if need be. But several here have pointed out that is has no real collectors value, so I might as well just have fun with it. I will give it a shot and see what she does. Thanks for the info!

I am suspecting the wood is from India as browningautorifle indicated. I will have to see if I can find any references to it on the internet? I tend to be leary of Indian products. Made for show and not much quality put in them. But, hopefully I am wrong. They built Lee Enfield, right? Wouldn't they have been instructed and taught by the best?

I don't think the wood is Indian as it lacks the typical transverse wood screw through the forend in front of the magazine well area. Also, if it was new Indian production I'd expect to see the later riveted steel band reinforcing the back end rather than a brass pin. I believe the wood is "new old stock" walnut made at Enfield-note the superimposed ED logo on the underside.

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Originally Posted by Steve H. in N.Y.

I don't think the wood is Indian as it lacks the typical transverse wood screw through the forend in front of the magazine well area. Also, if it was new Indian production I'd expect to see the later riveted steel band reinforcing the back end rather than a brass pin. I believe the wood is "new old stock" walnut made at Enfield-note the superimposed ED logo on the underside.

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I really didn't take the stamps as authentic. I am going to be disassembling this rifle very soon to see what it looks like under the wood.

I would suggest giving it a range test (the No1MkIII) before taking it apart. Then if it shoots really well; don't disturb it by taking it apart.
If it's not great, keep the target for reference; then when you get into setting it up properly, you will be able to see your progress.
You may find it becomes a bit of an obsession trying to get the accuracy spot on! But when you are at the range and guy next to you with the latest stuff cannot do better than a rifle thats older than his Dad; it sure makes it worth the effort

Very good suggestion 30Three. Thank you! Time to start enjoying these pieces beyond the location of their safe keeping.

OK, so I realize now I did post this in Values section to get an idea from the experts.

Can anyone help me establish a dollar value in US currency, post Trump election on each of these rifles, not seeing them "under the skirt" so to speak!? Both bores are very good. The Mk.III is actually nicer than the Savage No. 4. Not sure how that happened?

lol

If you plan on taking the No.1 apart remove the fore stock first. Do not pry down on the end but apply pressure where it meets the butt socket, in the same direction as the angle of the butt socket. If It has been assembled with the square ended butt stock bolt and keeper plate in the fore stock you will split the wood.
Nice looking rifles, enjoy shooting them .

Here in Canada restored rifles bring between $500 to $650 CAD so ballpark would be $375 to 500 USD.

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Originally Posted by AmEngRifles

Do you think the Savage rifle was restocked at some point?

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I would say that it was restocked. The buttstock is a Canadian Long Branch and the CE 1967 marked front hand guard is British made for starters.

I think the CE1967 marked handguard is South African. Possibly British made for a South African contract?

Could be South African. I see a lot of them come out of the UK though.