No. 4, Mark II swivel question

Hello folks. I have a 1952 Lee Enfield No. 4 Mk. II and have a question about the center sling swivel orientation. It has an offset stalk, unlike the front and rear swivels. This means that in one direction of travel the swivel won't contact the underside of the stock. I'm not sure whether I have it flipped, however. Is the proper orientation so that the swivel will lay flat on the wood when pushed toward the butt, but will not contact wood when pushed toward the muzzle end? Thanks for any clarification you can give me, and I hope I have asked the question properly.

Surely, your No4 rifle swivels will be or SHOULD be symmetrical left and right. The off-set swivels are the preserve of the No1 rifle. In any case, there should only be two such swivels on the No4. The lower band and on the butt but in both cases the swivel and screw are identical. Or am I missing something.

I asked a confusing question. Yes, the swivels are all symmetrical left and right. It's fore and aft I'm talking about. They are canted, in that the post that forms the "T" in the swivel is not in the same plane as the swivel itself. The butt swivel points toward the muzzle, the muzzle swivel points toward the butt, but what about the middle swivel orientation? Imaging the swivel mounted to the rifle. Now manipulate the swivel. In one orientation it "bottoms out" going toward the muzzle, in the other orientation, it "bottoms out" on the stock toward the butt. Hope that's more clear.

Ah, yes, I see now. I say that the dog leg part of the swivel should lay flat/rearwards on the top loop and and flat, facing UPwards on the rear loop. Although you'll see swivels without the dog-leg effect

Yep, I agree with what you say, but I'm talking about the center swivel. I'm assuming it lays flat when folded toward the butt, but who knows.

Here is a 1955 Mk2 with three swivels.
The center swivel is a target modification; the other two are the issue models.

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...09243553-1.jpg

-----krinko

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Originally Posted by krinko

three swivels.

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The large swivel on the mag housing wasn't in the discussion. An offset swivel as originally referred to was a piling swivel. THOSE they didn't have.

Don't know what you are on about, Jim.
I am trying to determine what the OP thinks is the regulation number/location of swivels for the MK2, as suggested by the following quote:
"Yep, I agree with what you say, but I'm talking about the center swivel..."---Jupiter

-----krinko

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Originally Posted by krinko

Don't know what you are on about

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You threw in a red herring.

Jupiter, I think we're confused about what you mean by a "center" swivel. A No.4 rifle in standard configuration will have two swivels, one on the buttstock and one on the narrow band about half way between the magazine and the muzzle. I have seen rifles with a third swivel installed on the wider band near the muzzle just because one will fit there but this is not correct. Could this be the case with your rifle?

My rifle is an unfired Irish contract rifle. It was manufactured with three swivels, which includes the one on the front band. My question has nothing whatsoever to do with how many swivels the rifle is supposed to have. It has to do with the proper orientation of the center swivel. As I've said, all of the three swivels on my rifle are manufactured in such a way that there is a cant, a bend, a dogleg, whatever you want to call so that the stalk of the swivel is NOT in the same plane as the swivel itself. So, that assuming the rifle is held horizontally, and the stalk of the swivel is pointing directly at the ground, the swivel itself (the portion that accepts the sling) is NOT pointed at the ground, but is canted about 20 to 30 degrees fore or aft, depending on which way you install the swivel. I've out of further explanations. The question is when the swivel (not the butt swivel, and not the one by the front sight, but the center swivel) is fully pushed to its maximum travel upward (toward the sky) it will bottom out on the wood in ONE of its positions--the question is, should it be installed to that it bottoms out against the wood nearest the shooter, or nearest the muzzle. Either is possible depending on if you flip the swivel around. To be clear, the swivel itself is welded in such a way that it makes a "dogleg".

---------- Post added at 07:39 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:36 PM ----------

For further and hopefully final clarification, I am talking about the swivel about a foot from the muzzle. I'm calling that the center because my rifle has one at the butt, one about a foot from the muzzle, and one almost at the muzzle. I am not talking about a swivel added somehow just forward of the magazine.

---------- Post added at 07:46 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:39 PM ----------

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Originally Posted by browningautorifle

The large swivel on the mag housing wasn't in the discussion. An offset swivel as originally referred to was a piling swivel. THOSE they didn't have.

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Correct, Jim, I am not talking about a swivel on the mag housing, nor am I talking about an offset/piling swivel where the screw tab is off center on the swivel. I am talking about a canted screw tab, stalk, or whatever one wants to call the piece of the swivel that accepts the screw.

---------- Post added at 07:52 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:46 PM ----------

Krinko, you could answer my question by doing the following: In your photo, your sling is attached in the front to what I am calling the "center swivel" because mine has one at the muzzle as well. To answer my question, please manipulate your front swivel, and tell me in which position the swivel will lie flat on the wood--it will do so in only one direction, either toward the butt, or toward the muzzle. Just want you to fold the swivel, and tell me in which direction it lays flat. Thanks. This is easier to do than write, I am finding. If your will lie flat in both directions, you have a different model swivel, an uncanted one.

It lies flat towards the rear, so it stops from going forward when the rifle is slung...

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Originally Posted by browningautorifle

It lies flat towards the rear, so it stops from going forward when the rifle is slung...

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Excellent! Thank you very much for the information, I appreciate it.

Naming of Parts

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This is the lower sling swivel. And this
Is the upper sling swivel, whose use you will see,
When you are given your slings. And this is the piling swivel,
Which in your case you have not got. . .

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Which in our case we have not got?

The feature of a piling swivel was discontinued from the standard-issue British rifle . . . during the latter years of World War I. The rationale for the swivel's retirement were the cost, time and labor saved by its elimination, but also the accelerating tactics of modern warfare, whereby soldiers in the trenches could no longer afford the luxury of storing their weapons in a neat, interlocked stack or "pile," nor the time to untangle them. Inclusion resumed following the first World War, before finally being dropped altogether in the late 1930's.

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See why those of us accustomed to standard nomenclature are confused by a "center swivel"?

This does bring up another question though, are the Irish contract rifles really provided with a piling swivel? They actually came from the factory with a swivel mounted up front? That would actually be the first #4 rifle that I've ever seen with a piling swivel. There were lots of those rifles sold around here too...

Nope. They were bog standard UK Military spec No4 Mk2 rifles, as per the MoS build spec, EMER and IPList. 2x swivels. Butt and lower band.

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Originally Posted by Jupiter

My rifle is an unfired Irish contract rifle. It was manufactured with three swivels, which includes the one on the front band.

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Originally Posted by Peter Laidler

Nope.

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OK, that's what I thought.

There's an excellent discussion about sling swivels by Peter Laidler and others under most Knowledge Library entries for various No.4(T)'s ...

As an example, check the "Collectors Comments and Feedback" for:

1944 Enfield No.4 Mk1(T) Sniper Rifle

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Originally Posted by Peter Laidler

Extract …..

The Military issue sling swivel, B1/CR-540, WILL FOUL the steel loop at the front of the trigger guard. Read that again. It WILL FOUL the loop at 180 degrees of rotation either way. The reason is to prevent the sling loop and sling rotating and getting itself into a twist.

The post war commercial item that fakers use is slightly longer and will just clear the small wire loop. This allows it and therefore the sling to rotate through 360 degrees. The sling can and will twist.

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Also, here's another older thread in the forum on the same subject which has a lot of interesting information and feedback:

Center Sling Swivel

Regards,
Doug

My buddy and I bought two of these on the same day. Both wrapped, tagged, encased in full on cosmoline/grease, etc. My serial shows Irish contract, one of the 50K that went to Ireland. His is Burma. Both came with three swivels. I just check with him yesterday and had him send me a photo of his to verify. I have done nothing whatsoever to the rifle in terms of adding parts since the day I got it, and I am the only owner. All three swivels on the rifle are identical. So, what can I tell you.

Slightly off topic, the rifle has a matching serial number magazine, number stamped in white on the bottom of the mag. I would like to purchase an additional mag, but find them difficult to acquire. Will a No. 4 Mark I mag also fit the No. 4 mark II? Thank you in advance for any guidance.

All I can say is that the UK Military build specification for the rifle goes on for a couple of pages and states that two sling swivels will be fitted on the..... for the purposes of........ and these swivels will........... etc etc etc. I realise that your rifles were supposedly part of '....the Irish' contract (and a Burma one too...) but they were MADE by the UK Government FOR the UK Government. Maybe you could ask your pal why none of the others don't have this extra swivel. Where was the extra swivel incidentally? On the upper band (near the foresight) or attached to the front trigger guard screw. I have just felt under the mummified wrapping of my STILL new in wrap No4 and as far as I can feel, guess what....... 2 sling swivels exactly where they were on the thousands and thousands I saw in my limited Army service - as an Armourer

Yes, all No4 magazines are the same. It could be that Irish and Burmese ones differ slightly but 'the same' does not mean that they are interchangeable. Magazines are hand fitted to ensure the correct fit and function. That's why they are numbered to the gun.

Sorry to be more brutal than persuasive in my argument, but that's how they were manufactured.

You sound miffed, Peter. The serial is PF332XXX, manufacture date 12/54. Purchased roughly 20 years ago in wrap. Cleaned by me. As for "asking my buddy", why would I do that? He didn't manufacture the rifle, he simply bought at the same time I did, also mummified. Now I guess it's possible that both of our elderly memories have failed us, and that we both added a superfluous swivel by the muzzle. Not at all worth arguing about if that's what you want to do. I just feel blessed to have the rifle. Thanks for your time. Adios.

Jupiter, I was wondering if you would be able to post some pictures of your No4 rifle, please? I would be very interested to see it especially of the centre swivel which I have not seen before fitted to a No4 rifle. Does your rifle still have the small metal eye/ring just in front of the magazine?

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Originally Posted by Jupiter

My rifle is an unfired Irish contract rifle. It was manufactured with three swivels, which includes the one on the front band. . .

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OK, I'm curious. Is that swivel on the upper ("front") band a complete loop like the others, or is it a proper piling swivel with a gap in the center?

Attachment 75780

Flying10UK: Please reread my earlier posts. There is no "center swivel" as that term is used by the experts here. See photo 6 for what you may be referring to.

---------- Post added at 05:26 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:24 PM ----------

Parashooter: It does not have an off-center stalk as in your photo, but is indeed open, not a complete loop.[COLOR="black"]

Hi Jupiter - if you took it from the armory wrap, why question why anything is there or if it is the right way around. Work creation / busy work in 1950's Britain would have put 3 dots on every "i" inspection wise. You have the best story of one of the better models and builds in some peoples eyes - can you share pictures of the rifle and swivel installation? - it will be interesting to see the condition / finish for tinkerers tell-tales or otherwise.

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Originally Posted by l1a1 breakdown

Hi Jupiter - if you took it from the armory wrap, why question why anything is there or if it is the right way around. Work creation / busy work in 1950's Britain would have put 3 dots on every "i" inspection wise. You have the best story of one of the better models and builds in some peoples eyes - can you share pictures of the rifle and swivel installation? - it will be interesting to see the condition / finish for tinkerers tell-tales or otherwise.

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What do you mean "If" I took it from the armory wrap? In answer to your question, I took the furniture off to totally remove cosmoline from under barrel, etc. and in so doing had the band off and want to know if I reinstalled it correctly or flipped it. That question came to mind when I noticed what prompted my question in the first place (see original post, as it has pretty much gotten lost in all the questioning. Hope that satisfies your curiosity.

Let's see if this comes through. First attempt at a photo.

Here's another with last digits of serial covered.

Front swivel.

Last one.

Mine's a year older, with no piling swivel - and nothing obscuring the serials. Is there something about yours that has to be hidden?

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo.../1zlbsiq-1.jpg

Nothing in particular, just my choice not to publish serial numbers of guns I own. You can do as you please, as shall I.
As for this thread, I'm done with it.

Moderator note ...

There's no further need for responses, as member "Jupiter" feels he's been treated badly and therefore requested to be removed from the site.

Thank you to all who tried to help him the best you could with his question. :cheers:

Regards,
Doug

I realise and appreciate that Jupiter fees a bit peeved Badger but straight talking is always best and it is what I do - and most others on the forum seem to do, and appreciate. But one other fact remains, that I'd kept up my sleeve should the discussion reach an impasse. It's this.......

The relationship between the tip of the fore-end and the muzzle end of the barrel of a service No4 is critically important for the accuracy of the standard rifle. You could put a sling loop on the top band but the moment you actually USE it as a loading point for the sling, and you can only pull down and rearwards on it, that critical muzzle loading point has gone. As has the accuracy. It really is as simple as that.

Well its choices I guess for some what they do getting expert help from hands on people is hard to come by if you do not want to listen then that is your loss, I thought piling swivels were long gone by the time the No.4 was issued though I am keen to learn otherwise.

People want to hear what they want to hear...

Wow, sorry he's offended but……. What is the world coming to when honest discussion becomes offensive? I've had well over a hundred "new in the wrap" No.4Mk.2 rifles as imported in the late 80's and early 90's and NONE had stacking swivels installed as original. I think Jupiter's memory is failing him. Just my two cents. Ho hum.