New guy here, with Lee-Enfield N0. 4 Mk 2

Hello everyone...

I was directed to this site from a guy on a Rimfire forum. Here is what I posted:

Friend of the family is retiring, and has about 60 guns He is slowly selling. The vast majority are WW II classics (Garand's, Springfields, Mausers, 1917 Enfield's, you get the picture)

I really wanted to get some of the Springfields/Garands/1917 Enfield, etc. However, the vast majority of His stuff is in top-notch shape, and runs about $ 850 plus. I really don't want to spend that much, so I asked Him if He had anything in the $ 500 or so range, that maybe needed re-furbished metal and/or Wood. he said No, that all of His stuff was really nice, but He might have something that was closer to my budget.

He pulled out a Lee-Enfield No. 4 Mk 2, that was made in 1954 at Fazakerly. England, still new in the original box, covered in Cosmoline, wrapped in paper, along with the included bayonet. I'm not too up to speed on Lee-Enfields, but he showed me the Blue book value at $ 1,000. He said "Nobody realistically pays that $ 1,000, but it would get $ 900 all day long." He said since I'm a friend that He'd let it go for $700, so i agreed.

I really want to remove the Cosmoline and shoot this sucker, but I also don't want to kill the resale value. He said that not many are left in brand new condition, still in the wrappers.

I think in all my years, I've only sold one gun, and have kept everything else....so, i don't think I'd ever sell it. Should i just de-cosmoline it, and have fun, or let it sit as is?

From what I've read, the #4 Mk 2, is the nicest made, most refined of all the models, since the brits had time after the war to take their time with manufacturing it, and had gotten all of the "kinks", out of the design.

Any advise appreciated.

If there is a slice in the paper over the action body and the serial number is visible, there is a possibility that it is one of the rifles imported from Ireland (though to be fair there is some dispute regarding the official records by folks who really know the English MOD inside and out).

if curious this page might help, look at post # 61 for the serial number and what it indicates.

Fritz's FF marked Enfield sticky - Page 2


Now the value of these arms will be reduced a bit if you take the rifle out of paper and clean it up, by around 150~200 dollars, as a new example sells with no paper covering sells for around 500 to 550. once used and dinged up, even a to a slight degree the value drops another 50 to 100.

That said what it the value of the rifle sitting in a box to you? The mind set of a collector compared to a shooter is quite a bit different.

I like the values where you are Frederick one in the wraps came up for sale in Aus over the eastern states for $2,200/AU I think it was UF serialed not sure if it sold way out of my league

Flintlock. If your uncle offered you a brand new, ganz neue sparkling, gleaming totally as it left the facftory MGB GT with no miles on the clock, that was wrapped up. mummified in 1966 and NEVER opened, I bet that you'd snap his hands clean off. Go and do that with this car...., I mean No4 Enfield. Like the MGB GT, they ain't makin' no more. Better still, if you really desperately want to drive your MGB, you could tear off the preservative and give it a thrashing all day long. On the other hand, you could just go and buy another old MGBGT and still have the same fun. You can do that with this brand new rifle. Go and buy it and later, when you feel the need, go and buy another old clunker to shoot. The feel, the nostalgia and the recoil will be the same, so will everything else. But in the cupboard or garage at home you've got an investment. And EVERY time some wally opens up the sealed wrapping of THEIR new-in-wrap rifle, the value of yours goes up proportionately because there's one less.

Don't we all wish we had bought a brand new MGBGT - or Triumph TR - and kept it stored. I didn't keep a new MGB GT but I sure did keep a new rifle!

Cinders

There are a lot of these around eastern PA. February show at Easton (Forks of the Delaware) a set of a clean UF xxxx and a PF 3xx,xxx (latter in a tattered wrap with wrapped bayonet) did not sell for 529 and 559 respectively, at least by the time I left on Sunday.

All the young guys want is black semi-auto rifles. The bolt action guys are all old farts

Thanks guys for the replies....

I am leaning toward removing the cosmoline, and shooting it. Actually, the rifle is covered in Cosmoline, BUT, the paper is loosely wrapped around the rifle, and not around it like a Mummy, so i'm guessing there is already a slight decrease in value, since the friend of the Family, took it out of the paper, but kept the paper. the box is also original, but doesn't have the literature on it.

If I decide to remove the Cosmoline, I have read the best way is to apply a heat gun at temperatures just high enough to melt the Cosmoline, followed by an Acetone soaked rag to remove the residue...is this the best method?

Any help appreciated.

p.s. If I decide to shoot it; would you use the 150 grain bullets, or the heavier ones e.g. 174 or 180 grain? My range is only 100 yards in length.

thanx

---------- Post added at 12:58 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:51 PM ----------

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Frederick303

If there is a slice in the paper over the action body and the serial number is visible, there is a possibility that it is one of the rifles imported from Ireland (though to be fair there is some dispute regarding the official records by folks who really know the English MOD inside and out).

if curious this page might help, look at post # 61 for the serial number and what it indicates.

Fritz's FF marked Enfield sticky - Page 2


Now the value of these arms will be reduced a bit if you take the rifle out of paper and clean it up, by around 150~200 dollars, as a new example sells with no paper covering sells for around 500 to 550. once used and dinged up, even a to a slight degree the value drops another 50 to 100.

That said what it the value of the rifle sitting in a box to you? The mind set of a collector compared to a shooter is quite a bit different.

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Looks like it very well may be an irish model based on this from post #61:

1) Letter from the Irish archives to Graham Priest in April 2000 confirming that they purchased 50,000 No4 Mk II rifles between 1954 and 1956 with the following serial ranges:

PF 301548 to PF 405415

My rifle is marked:

No 4 Mk 2 (F)
1/54 PF 3147XX

So, looks like it was made in Jan 1954 at the Fakerley site, and MAYBE went to Ireland?

thanks

Seeing as it has been unwrapped my take would be clean it, take it out shooting and enjoy it. Do not use acetone to remove cosmoline from the wood! It is too harsh of a solvent. Mineral spirits(paint thinner) will work great on the metal but I prefer to use turpentine on the wood.
After it is clean give the metal a quick wipe down with oil and a coat or two of linseed oil to the wood. Take care of it and the value will not be lost too much.

But take it from me Flintlock, the value WILL go down. But mine will go UP because there's one less! But the old farts can only gently tell the young bloods so much............

Since it has been unwrapped the value is already down and sometimes preservation doesn't work. I hate to think of the classic cars and guns I have seen that through inattention have been reduced to pitted pieces of metal and oil dripping relics because they never were used and properly serviced.

I would rather have something that I enjoy and use than something that I could look at and wonder what if? Storage conditions play a big role on how something is preserved. Left to sit moisture rusts, rubber cracks and fabric rots

My 56 Oldsmobile does not sit in a garage to slowly deteriorate from disuse but rather gets driven to keep all the seals and surfaces lubricated, same as my guns.

flintlock28,

I you read the post # 61 carefully you will have a much better idea of if your gun is or is not an Irish gun. The data you need was in there, you simply did not read carefully enough.

Acetone might attack the suncorite coating on the metal. An excellent way to reduce the value of your rifle to the 350~375 dollar shooter grade range.

Thanks guys for the replies; I've decided that I will De-grease it, and shoot it. I will use 100% Mineral Spirits on both the wood and metal, since I know from a Master wood restorer, that true Mineral Spirits won't hurt any Wood finishes.

I'm glad someone wrote not to use Acetone on the Metal...i didn't realize the Acetone will likely ruin the factory finish.

In regards to taking it to the range; is 150, 174, or 180 grain recommended for shooting at 100 yards? I've heard at 100 yards to use the flip up vertical sight, since the non-sliding peep is set for 300 yards.

thanx

Flintlock: I recently cleaned the storage grease off of mine (the guy I bought it from had pulled it out of the wrap and set it on a table at a gunshow dripping grease). I dipped the metal in kerosene using a wall paper dipping plastic trough and it did a splendid job on the grease (need to run patches through the bore at the same time). Gave it all a thorough oiling afterwords. The wood I cleaned with nothing more than raw linseed oil- nothing stronger was required. It has not a scratch or ding anywhere on it and I don't plan to shoot it as I suspect normal use would slowly ratchet the value down. One thing I did notice during the cleaning was that there were traces of rust in a couple of spots in spite of the presence of the ancient grease. Depending upon the climate where you live I'm not sure leaving one in the wrap is a great idea.

Ridolpho

Keep it as is and buy another to shoot initially. It is a FACT that Enfields multiply and you'll be buying more in future anyhow, so face it and deal with it sooner rather than later.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Peter Laidler

But take it from me Flintlock, the value WILL go down. But mine will go UP because there's one less! But the old farts can only gently tell the young bloods so much............

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So you are getting your no4 mk2 still in wraps buried with you Peter?

---------- Post added at 08:20 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:16 PM ----------

I would leave it in wraps for now and go get another mk2 gun someone has already done the cleaning on, there are good ones around. Later when experienced then consider bringing it to life. PS Here in NZ such an example in wraps would be about $2500NZD, $1700US so to pay $700US is to me a very good deal.

One note on the leaving them in the wrapper. Because you cannot be 100% certain of where they've been before I have my wrapped No.4s also stored in Z-core anti corrosion bags. Actually have most of my rifles in them actually because of a house move 4 years ago but those are staying there until I have my gun room set up correctly.

Thanks for the replies; I will consider not de-greasing it, and possibly getting a like model "beater", for shooting. My home is always climate controlled, plus my gun safe usually has a dessicant in it, and I've never had an issue with rust. I also use Eezox as a lubricant, which is one of the best anti-rust lubricants.

I'm really champing at the bit to shoot this; I hope my resolve holds out to get a beater instead.

Wise man Flintlock!

You don't need to get a "beater " either. You can find a practically new No.4 for about $400 odd if you poke about carefully

Oddly the price of a really clean, matching No4 here in the UK is some way north of 400 US. (People pay more than that to rebarrel them).

You would struggle to find a shot out scrapper for the equivalent £300 here..

But to be fair, he's not in the UK, he's in the the US of A where prices are a tad more realistic. It's like buying a new car. You can buy a new car here in the UK where '....the list price is the list price...' or go to Europe where the list price is the high point from which you start your downwards spiralling negotiations. That's why the Europeans call the UK 'Treasure Island'

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Frederick303

All the young guys want is black semi-auto rifles. The bolt action guys are all old farts

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Yes you may be right frederick but lets just see how good some of those S.A's are in 100+ years given what some of the SMLE's and Mausers have been through not that you and I will be around, besides the plastic fantastics have to many bells and whistles on them now days gotta have an instruction manual an inch thick to drive them..........with all the attachments?:madsmile:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by CINDERS

lets just see how good some of those S.A's are in 100+ years

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Remember when the black semi auto was designed and hit the field...was now 50+ years... The battles they've been through and places they've been cannot be considered nothing. The examples of the bolt guns that have ACTUALLY SEEN BATTLE are more rare than one might believe. Most that we have now are just the ones carried and used day to day... I think the little black rifle's acquitting it's self nicely.

How many do you reckon came back from conflicts BAR I guess the attrition rate in WWI for a weapon would be horrendous something sticking said a 303 had a 2 week life span on the Western front probably a bit longer than their human user., I realize the little black rifle is going well by the number of people who copied them.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by CINDERS

the attrition rate in WWI for a weapon would be horrendous

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There was a paragraph in one of my regimental history books once to the effect of "I awoke and dug myself out, crawled around and found a rifle that worked. I used it until it broke and then found another one"... That was always pointed to me. I always wondered what he meant by "Broke"? As far as I know, he was speaking of the #1 mk3.

When I say old fart I put myself in that category, these days I prefer to shoot a well tuned center-bedded Maltby No 4 MKI or a well regulated K31 or even a 1938 Special Target M1903 to what passes for a NM AR16 these days. The current rules allow fro a complete "Pimp my rifle" configuration with commercial optics and nonstandard adjustable stocks. Truly barf worthy.

But lay down with any of the old rifles and it is a throwback to a long gone world.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Frederick303

When I say old fart I put myself in that category

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I'm worse, I like them all.

Me too Jim.

Call it a failing...

Ahhhhhhh....I like "rifles of color" as well, earned my High master XTC card and Presidents 100 tab with NM AR15A2 configuration. You could spend more but two vendors sold competition ready rifles (Armalite and Rock River) for between 850 and 900 dollars at the US Nationals. Rifles good enough to compete head to head against any of the offering for 1200 dollars and up.

But that is in the past: 2016 and on you can shoot non-issue optics such as below:

https://www.ssusa.org/articles/2016/...fixed-45-x-24/

You can use adjustable stocks like so, a pattern never used by any military:

Magpul UBR Stock 7-Position Collapsible AR-15 Synthetic

So a sport, as artificial as it was but one where one could compete with a 900 dollar rifle that looked just like the issue rifle with no equipment inferiority, now allows the use of 2,000 optics, with 260 dollar stocks, non standard float tubes and several hundred dollar super-duper scope mounts like so:

Rock River Arms: NEW! LAR-15 NM A4 CMP Rifles (2016)

So what modern US service rifle competition has become is kind of a farce. It is now a limited class that really does favor deep pockets and equipment centric wankers, firing a course of fire with shooting equipment that is more ISSU related than military. I never would have though I would say it, but three gun with all its crap is actually more practical and relevant now.

It is on that basis that I say it is more fun to shoot the old rifles. Be it the k31 in the Einzelwettschiessen, the M1903 in the NMC or the No4 at simulated 1948 tin hat targets course of fire, archaic as they are there is a connection to precision service rifle shooting the at the modern stuff has lost.

I've decided to keep the rifle as is, and attend the upcoming Oaks, PA Gun show, in early October. There I will look for another No. 4 Mk 2 in really nice shape. There are 1700 Tables at that show, so hopefully I'll come across a nice model for shooting. It's difficult with the rifle sitting in it's box only 10 feet away from me....Like the proverbial Siren it's calling out to me...


"Take me out of the box; degrease me, clean me up, and take me to the range"

"I want to feel those Copper bullets slide down my Barrel,,,please, please"

Must resist the Siren's song.

I seem to recall the battle sight was for 300yd with the spike bayonet attached that is what I have heard correct me if I am wrong

Flintlock,

if you try the February show at Forks of the Delaware, I think the fellow who has the New PF and UF rifles for between 529 and 559 will likely be there. He did not sell any last year and only comes to the Feb shows for some reason.

Thanks for the info....I appreciate it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ssj

So you are getting your no4 mk2 still in wraps buried with you Peter?

---------- Post added at 08:20 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:16 PM ----------

I would leave it in wraps for now and go get another mk2 gun someone has already done the cleaning on, there are good ones around. Later when experienced then consider bringing it to life. PS Here in NZ such an example in wraps would be about $2500NZD, $1700US so to pay $700US is to me a very good deal.

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$2500NZD? What a rip. I've gotten all four of mine for less than $1400NZD each