6.5x58

Hi all,

Thought I would show you the ammo I just finished making up for my 6.5x58 M1904 Mauser-Vergueiro.

Making the 6.5x58 has been a massive pain for me, but I am pretty excited to test it out. I had to resize the brass from 8mm Mauser (necks down beautifully, to basically the exact neck length you need, I had a difficult time adjusting it to the proper point but once it was set up it went great) with a expensive set of CH4D 6.5x58 dies (though they are extremely well made dies).

From there I was having some issues with getting the bullets to stay where they needed to be (either from the necks being a bit too loose from the sizing down or the bullets were slightly undersized, either way they wouldn't stay where they needed to be). So I had to order a 6.5x55 crimp die set to crimp in the necks a bit so they would hold the bullets. From there it was standard reloading until I was finally seating the bullets, which I had to do in groups of 5 then crimp the necks to hold the bullets in place (99% sure it was the bullets, they appear to be Swedish surplus 156grn bullets, and they have a slight taper on the case, however they are really close to the original profile of 6.5x58).

With this all done, I am now ready to test it out at the range. I am also having to develop my own load data, as there is next to none in existence (looked at similar cartridges at similar weights and velocities and adjusted accordingly starting low and moving higher).

Overall I am pretty excited, this whole process being 3 months in the works. I also haven't been shooting for about the same length of time so that is also something exciting. Here is some photos for your viewing pleasure (also likely the most 6.5x58 that has ever been photographed in one location, a full 50rds). Here is a older photo I took of the rifle that will be shooting them.

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...snjs9tem-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...x1c9zkdp-1.jpg

Others will have more details, but there are 6.5's and 6.5's.

Some are "standard" .264" bullet size, some, like the Italian 6.5 x 52 Carcano run to .268". If you are having "loosness" issues, it may be that the 4 thou difference is significant in neck tension.

No idea what bullet diameter a 6.5 x 58 comes in at. If you have some "factory" ammo there, whip out the old dial or Vernier calipers and find out.

When you pulled the cases down to size in the die, did you do an internal neck-ream? If so, to what diameter?

Well I gave the bullets a check and they mic in at about .263-.2635 thou (using a micrometer). That is likely my problem as the neck expander is a standard .264 dia. When I put the bullets in the muzzle of the rifle to check the rifling they went up until the largest point on the bullets so I suspect they will shoot just fine. Its ok though I got a good deal on the bullets (.25 cents a bullet) so the little bit extra I had to pay for a crimp die isn't much of a problem (plus I have the crimp die if I want to use it on something else).

I didn't do a internal neck ream, just whatever it ended sized to from the necking down.

Unfortunately 6.5x58 is a very rare cartridge, hasn't really be produced since the 40s and even then it wasn't made much (only rifle ever chambered in it was the M1904, and most of those were converted to 8mm Mauser, leaving <20,000 in the original chambering). Finding a original round is like finding hens teeth, even getting information on the case was difficult (found a decent source of information in Spanish though).

Roundabouts and swings: necking down 8mm cases probably leaves you with a reasonably thick neck section.

If you are worried about the actions of the expander ball, either see if there is one a few thou smaller available from any of the die makers or specialist reloading supplies houses, like Sinclair. See also suppliers to the "Bench Rest" shooters.

Someone may even make a Carbide one; Lyman?

Annealing after first forming?

Keep us posted!

I have never done annealing, though I suspect it might have helped out. I likely will be going shooting on Sunday and we will see the results then.

Found this for you as a guide only but as usual start 5 ~ 10% under & work up, have fun developing the loads
For others wanting to have a look heres the link address for other cartridges there is a few there. https://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&r...6vBjm5SR8d1E2g

What I notice is your crimp is not right at the end of the neck causing a flairing of the neck this may cause it to get caught feeding into the chamber I suggest you adjust the crimper to the end of the neck you can see how my crimp on the 303 rounds is right at the end of the neck it is that slightly different coloured ring mark

Unfortunately I don't believe I am able to adjust the height of the crimp as it uses the shell holder to actuate the crimping. A possible solution would be to machine up a larger shell plate or maybe a small insert to make it longer however I don't have the facilities for that at the moment. I am just going to hope it works at this point (and if not correct/make it work as I go) :D

The powder I am using is 3031, which is a suitable powder for this type of loading (my favourite for all sorts of milsurps from my Swiss 1889 to my 8mm Lebel), and I am not trying for too much velocity, aiming for roughly 2300-2400ft/sec (like the original loading). The case capacity of the 6.5x58 is 90% of 8mm Mausers case capacity and the loads in my book for 150 grn bullet in 8mm start at 49grns of 3031. 90% of 49 is 44grns, and I am starting at 40grns so it should be fairly safe (plus these actions were later on successfully converted to 8mm with no issues, so they are a strong enough action). I'll be sure to post the results.

DWM 1904 catalogue gives 6.5x58 bullet dia as 6.7mm (.2637") and DWM bullet number 210 same as 6.5x54r. Bt dia same as 6.5x55.

Excellent these bullets should do well then. I'll post the results tomorrow.

Nothing like a good resurrection.

Well it worked successfully. All chambered no problem and all fired no problem. Not the tightest grouping but not bad for off hand shooting. One observation I had was that the bolt was more difficult to work after firing unlike the M1904/39, could just be the difference in the guns or maybe the ammo. Anyways here is the results.

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...ahwomqbp-1.jpg

It's no Swedish M-96, BUT at least you are on the paper and can go from there.

How is the action bedding and the bearing on the barrel? Timber can move around a bit over a century or so.

Good going, anyway.

I could probally tighten it up a fair bit with a bit of practice and using a bench rest. It shoots a little high, though I might play around with the load a bit to see if I can get it to go POI at 100m. I am not sure how the bedding is, normally I am just happy getting these old rifles to shoot, rather than getting them to shoot lasers (I have my .22 for that).

Most "older" military rifles seem to "shoot high" to some extent, especially those with a "quick-set" battle setting where the firer just reefs the back-sight slide fully to the rear, (whereupon, on many rifles, it is actually set on the 300m "battle" option), and goes for it.

Maybe the boffins also figured that if the NCOs could train the troops to consistently aim at the center of mass, at the appropriate range setting, a bit of "extra elevation" would still see the bullet strike somewhere it could do nasty things.

The rear sight on the 1904 goes down to 200m (which is nice because I am used to working with 300m) so it shouldn't be too difficult to try and get it POI.

I suspect the reason for the 300m min setting on most rifles was just that they anticipated using these rifles like small arty pieces, firing by platoon and such. I think they just figured that war would be fought at longer distances (like the Boer War), and if it was less than that, that was why you had your bayonet!

FWIW, I just picked-up 3 NOS boxes of Kynoch 6.5mm Portuguese. The SP 155gr. bullets measure out to 6.61mm (.260).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jonnyc

FWIW, I just picked-up 3 NOS boxes of Kynoch 6.5mm Portuguese. The SP 155gr. bullets measure out to 6.61mm (.260).

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That is a rare find, congrats.

For those interested in the round, here was a good website for information (it is in Spanish though, hopefully the google translate works for this link)
Google Translate

You can use a washer on top of the shell holder as a spacer to elevate the Lee factory crimp die collet earlier. That will raise the location of the crimp.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Eaglelord17

Unfortunately I don't believe I am able to adjust the height of the crimp as it uses the shell holder to actuate the crimping. A possible solution would be to machine up a larger shell plate or maybe a small insert to make it longer however I don't have the facilities for that at the moment. I am just going to hope it works at this point (and if not correct/make it work as I go) :D

The powder I am using is 3031, which is a suitable powder for this type of loading (my favourite for all sorts of milsurps from my Swiss 1889 to my 8mm Lebel), and I am not trying for too much velocity, aiming for roughly 2300-2400ft/sec (like the original loading). The case capacity of the 6.5x58 is 90% of 8mm Mausers case capacity and the loads in my book for 150 grn bullet in 8mm start at 49grns of 3031. 90% of 49 is 44grns, and I am starting at 40grns so it should be fairly safe (plus these actions were later on successfully converted to 8mm with no issues, so they are a strong enough action). I'll be sure to post the results.

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Easy and cheap way to make 6.5x58 is to size neck and set back shoulder of 8x57 brass in 6.5x55 die til bolt will just close, anneal, fire form and neck size in 6.5x55 die for loading.