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Evening chaps, I was watching a fascinating programme on BBC4 the other day about achieve defence footage from the 1960's.
Among the nostalgic V bomber scrambles there was an interesting film regarding BOAR exercises in circa 1962 ish, among the L1A1's and SMG,s troops seemed to be still using .303 Brens. So when did they finally leave front line service?
There is no true final date as they were only ever declared obsolescent...... The old .303 guns drifted on for absolutely ages and ages, well into the late 60's and early 70's for rear echelon units. I would say that the very last 303 guns went with the that last CONBAT anti tank guns where they were used alongside the main gun as ranging guns. The 7.62 guns were also used but the trajectory didn't match the main armament unless the hapless gunner employed a conversion scale that was so complicated that......... Well, put it this way. Not many Infantry anti-tank gunners had a diploma in logarithmic mathematics (- or even a basic schooling sometimes!).
When the last Conbats left front line TA service, so did the .303 Bren. BUT....... They remained in Cadet force service until the last remains of the 303 guns were declared obsolete in 2003. But by this time a lot of the old .303 guns had already been replaced by L4A4 guns in Cadet service. Generally speaking, the last 303 guns were all Mk2's and certainly the vast majority in BAOR were Mk2's while the Mk3's were the preserve of Far-East Land Forces. The vast bulk of these FARELF Mk3's formed the backbone of the huge early 70's L4A4 conversion programme.
Not quite the answer you asked for but near enough..........
Thanks Peter, much appreciated.
Talking of Army Cadets using Brens, I remember being out hunting in the mid 1980's, when a bunch of young cadets ruined the peace, on land they shouldn't have been on (and scattered the rabbits for miles) trying to work their way through a very thorny hedge line .. the sight of a little 13 year old bedraggled lad, dragging a Bren Gun by the muzzle that was as tall as him, desperately trying to free it from the thorn bushes, cracked me up and still makes me laugh today when I think about it!
Off track slightly but regarding Brens. With the change in the UK dewat/deactivation specification of Brens, from 'working parts' and mostly strippable to welded up, the last of the old spec are almost gone as I understand it. In a year you'll be saying '.......I wish I'd bought an old spec when I had the chance'.
GO AND GET ONE NOW. It will be too late very soon!
Did any .303 Brens remain in U.K. long term storage as "War Reserve Stock" long after they were declared obsolete together with other long obsolete weapons such as Stens. I have heard various rumours of this nature over the years but have no idea if there is any truth in them.
Nope - in short. Once any kit is declared obsolete it is destroyed or disposed of. Stuff in store is just an expensive way of storing fresh air. So while it is readied for disposal it is stored of course but disposal or destruction is generally a quick process
Yep, we've gone away from storing anything these days and that's why we run out of things and have equipment shortages which ultimately be come more expensive. But it's all about who's budget pays for what.
Someone did tell me in the last year or so that the thinking nowadays in the MOD is not to store much spare equipment even if current issue but to purchase it again new if needed. Presumably this is why so much current issue kit is seen on the surplus market. I'm not too sure about this theory/practice making economic sense for the poor old U.K. Tax payer???
Storeage of kit is always a thorny problem. To store it in what are now commercially run Ordnance Depots costs money. You could argue that there is absolutely no need to store valuable MAN lorry spares or Land Rover spares when a Field workshop order for, say, a rebuilt rear axle is directed straight to the UK distributor who sends it out to the unit as he would an order to the MAN lorry depot in Crewe.
A lot of stuff is simply not serviced now due to costs. Why repair a fairly cheap set of fixed focus binoculars that cost £70 or a quartz wristwatch that costs £22? Just replace it and send the old ones back to the manufacturer who decides if it's even economic to repair. I often used to quote the new cost of L4 and L7 BFA's against the cost of having them rebuilt..... Do we train apprentices over 3 years to repair night vision kit? Or do we let an unskilled(?) fitter do any un-important external fixes and send the internally damaged unit back to Pilkington for a like-new exchange unit?
A difficult one that I have had to see both sides of
The problem we have is that the MOD didn't procure enough spares to account for those parts returned to 3rd/4th line or that the contract was never set up correctly in the first place. We used to have to rob tyres from one aircraft to fly another. Thank god that ridiculous position has passed.
One of the good things to come out of clearing out the Depots is the discovery of long lost things. Merlin Engine at Stafford, WM20s at Carlisle and a few years ago a 1940 Bren from Portsmouth.
Isn't the reason that there are so many NOS 1907 bayonet grips available now is because someone incorrectly thought that they were for the No5 bayonet? So they were stored for a lot longer than they otherwise would have been which is useful if you need a set of replacement grips for your 1907.
The No1/No5 bayonet grip situation happened in the 80's/90's when the L2's and bayonets were being withdrawn. Replacement grips were demanded to to refurbish some 60,000 bayonets (and guns). And yes, hundreds of useless No1 grips came through the system, marked/catalogued as No5 grips..
The spares system now is in tied up in tight contract wording and caters for '.....just in time'. Alas, it doesn't seem to cater for '.....just in case' as it used to. Armourers were really their own worst enemies for keeping dozens and dozens of spares on the shelves of their Armourrers shops. Ordnance were guilty too. They used to supply spares under a 'unit of issue' system. So for smaller items, the unit of issue would be a sealed pack of 10! Such as the L1A1 trigger and sear axis sleeve. You'd probably never use 10 in 5 years!
In my opinion - and I haven't been at the sharp end for many years - I'd say that the ord system now is pretty good for current kit.
Binoculars or watches really who cares?Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Laidler
Jet turbine blades or complete engines for aircraft built 30-40 years ago and still in front line service...or trucks...
When you are talking to the local unit RSM and WO and they mention that 50-70% of their support vehicles are broke down or canibalized for spares and don't run you wonder if they could support any real combat operations.
Shouldn't the small arms stand be 200% reserve & primary issue?
They aren't something you can supply tomorrow if needed.
I note comments regarding the French adoption of the HK 416, being for 100,000 rifles supplied over 4-5 years!
I don't think a future opponent will give us that long to arm up. Having unarmed manpower didn't work very well for the Russians during WWI/2 or the UK during Ww2...Remember all the pictures of the troops training with broomsticks??
Being an island doesn't protect the UK the way it did in 1940...nor North America.
If in 1936 the Canadian MGO councilled that he needed 500,000 stored rifles and our population is now 4 times larger today, does having 100,000 rifles make sense?
Factual truth of the state of affairs when I left the Army in 2013, I suspect little has changed for the better since then. A simple 200 km road move from Edmonton to Wainwright would look like the Desert Storm Iraqi withdrawal up Highway 80 at times, and trail party would end up larger than the main body. We shipped troops by rented civilian Coach and equipment by commercial tractor-trailer for very good reason.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee Enfield
During "real" home Operations there would be a lot of green paint used on "expropriated" civilian heavy vehicles.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sentryduty
Its always been the way, a mate of mine who spent a lot of his time moving between various BOAR Armoured units in the 1980's used to laugh about the state of readiness. The only saving grace would have been the time Ivan would have needed to mobilise for War, hopefully enough time for NATO to call up the reserves and get the respective Vickers/British Aerospace/RG factories to pull out their fingers and get some overtime in!