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Does anyone know the origin of these dark green plastic oil bottles, please? This example appears to have no markings which I am able to see. I have seen, some time ago, an unconfirmed suggestion that they are of Australian manufacture/use. Is anyone able to confirm/correct this, please? Thanks for any information.
I used to see a sandy coloured version of this in the old L4 CES so I'm wondering if this is yet another variation.
I believe it's Canadian. They seemed to like plastic stuff - there was a partially plastic variation of the Enfield No.2 cleaning rod.
Yes, I have the lighter sandy coloured plastic version you mention, Peter, which is maker marked and I think that it is generally accepted that the sandy coloured version is Canadian. This differs in that it doesn't have a maker's mark and also, obviously, the colour difference.
I haven't seen that one, I'd think I would have. Ours, like that one...were solid not opaque. Different color too.Quote:
Originally Posted by peregrinvs
I also have one of these green oil bottles the same as Flying10uk, but mine is marked on the base with with the Canadian Ordnance mark (C with a Broad Arrow inside)
Is it opaque or solid color? Can we have a look? We had solid-no-seethrough types in the LAR kits.Quote:
Originally Posted by boristhepig
Mine is opaque identical to the picture in Flying10uk thread, will try and sort out a picture asap.
Here is my other version of the plastic oil bottle which does have a maker's mark on the top and which I understood to be of Canadian origin but am open to be corrected. Is this the type that you had in mind, Jim? Were the plastic bottles more common than the steel version in the Canadian army?
I don't recall metal ones in the LAR kits. I thought they were olive green. But not seethrough...Quote:
Originally Posted by Flying10uk
It's possible that the colour of the plastic has faded/changed slightly over the years?
Olive green and olive drab are two different colors. OD3 and OD7... But anyway, I'm wrong. They were a clear tan/grey. Almost clear. Don't remember any markings.Quote:
Originally Posted by Flying10uk
The Canadian bottle colour you chaps refer to is: Bottle Green. Quite a dark green colour.
The Opaque versions are bordering on grey in my Opinion. Some may term this a 'Dirty White' even. :cheers:
Dirty white is how I remember them. The plastic goes brittle too especially when they're empty and left on the shelf. Easily crushed and broken too as I recall especially in the wallet on the floor of the trucks going to and fro from places when clumsy feet tread on the wallets. Metal was better
Hi
Just located my oil bottle and added pictures
OK, that's an OLD stamp though. That could date back as far as Bren kits... The oil bottles we used were one piece and that shape, they sometimes broke, soaking the kit. They were a bit lighter but yes...seethrough. The only ones I have left are the last ones that look like the mosquito bottles except three times bigger. Black cap...they were at the end. No markings.
I found this picture online which was described as being of Canadian origin and it does look more "green" than the example in my 2nd picture.
See, that's the right color...for sure, exactly. But I was sure ours were solid, not the two assembled pieces. I don't have one on hand, they didn't live too long. Specially in the cold.
Without looking through the old parts lists, the acid test is this. Does it fit in the pocket of the spare parts wallet or the holdall. If it does then it's a Bren one. Where it was made was of little concern to the gun teams, believe me! Like BAR says, the plastic ones would go soft in the heat or brittle in the cold. Then they'd break and leak all over the kit
F10, That is DEFINATELY the Opaque/ 'Dirty White' variation. The Bottle Green Oil Bot. Is EXTREMELY noticeably different in colour! There is NO WAY you could mistake it as any other colour!Quote:
Originally Posted by Flying10uk
As Peter has said, whoever made it was of no concern. The colours did not matter either. ALL that was required, was an oil Bottle to do the job.
These details only are of interest to collectors these days. ;)
The metal tins were far superior, & there are ALSO differing variants of those as well!...........:madsmile:
Jim, I've found another plastic oil bottle picture of similar colour to the one in post 17 and I have it saved on my computer but I'm having trouble getting it transferred to the Forum. Although it is made in 2 parts and has a join it is not a "stepped" join and this join appears to be flush. I will have another go at getting the picture transferred to this thread later.
To be honest Tankie, I don't even think that these differences in texture or colour are even of interest to collectors. What I mean is this........ If you had a Bren CES laid out, on show at some display, I would seriously defy anyone to say quite categorically that '......that oil can or bottle or pullthrough or whatsit doesn't go with that Bren.....' And if they did, I'd question their knowledge and experience in a perhaps '.....forthright manner' of two words.
F-10, et-al. If it looks like a duck,quacks like a duck, walks like a duck and swims like a duck, guess what it is? If it fits in the SP wallet, guess what it is?
Just my opinion of course based on absolutely nothing more than having seen a few.........thousand!
That might be it, it's been some time since I broke one...we'll see.Quote:
Originally Posted by Flying10uk
An absolute fact. To meet requirement, you needed to have an oil bottle that was simply familiar to the storsey...or you'd fill out loss and damage report. As long as it worked correctly, or represented what he had to account for.Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Laidler
Here is the bottle without a stepped joint or much less of a step in the join.
You might be right...it looks right. I don't remember a seam but it doesn't matter. Color and shape are right.
An obvious question which I'm surprised that no-one has yet asked is why did Canada and possibly others make the decision to produce the oil bottle from plastic? A possible answer to this question could be "so that it could be mass produced, in the thousands, using the plastic injection moulding method". I had thought, incorrectly until about half an hour ago, that this would be the wrong answer because I had assumed that plastic injection moulding wasn't invented until at least the 1950s or 60s. Looking on-line, I was very surprised to find that simple forms of the process were discovered/invented as early as 1868 and a Patent of 1872, thought to be for making billiard balls. Here is a link to some interesting information: History of Plastic Injection Moulding Rotational Moulding
Because it was stone cheap...Quote:
Originally Posted by Flying10uk
Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Laidler
Pete, Your mindset is the same as me. Along with the 'I must get a so & so marked part to complete my gun. So it is 'Original' as it left the factory'!...It never fails to amaze Me, that there are indeed collectors out there. & I don't mean this as a disparaging remark as a put down to anyone.
But a Fact, that SOME enthusiasts have a 'Stamp Collector' approach to various items that they have a deep interest in. I sometimes cannot believe what I am told, & how deep & they seem to go. In their respective chosen field's of collecting!....
I overheard a former Radio collector who was 'well known' in that Sphere of Interest. Quite a few years back now. On how 'in 1944, the Black spring washer was replaced by a Zinc plated one. On the MK.I/II Blah De Blah Set'.....I mean REALLY! Unbelivable, but they are out there. Trust Me! :madsmile:
I actually know a collector who is also a dealer. Who collects Kalashnikov Oil Bottles! You would be shocked at how many types, shapes, Colours Etc. He has in his collection!!! :rolleyes: But he is one of a few that really go the extra mile. To attempt to complete a collection of these. AND, He has a wants list!!!!!! :move eek:
Pete, you also are aware. That I like you, am of a 'Don't Tollerate Fools gladly' approach. (Understatement for Me!) But when you actually encounter SOME individual's in various circles of the Militaria Circuit. The words Dispair, Disbeliefe, Horror, Anger, Where's that rope. I'm Gonna Hang myself in the Toilet, attitude. Knock People like us, cut from the same cloth. Sideways at times!!!.........Maybe, it is we are from a Different Age? Or we are getting Old!...:D
Plastic was employed in Canadian Bren accessories production from Nov 43. From notes held at Warminster.
'Plastic used for Canadian produced Containers Oil and plastic tips permitted on Canadian produced spare parts wallets and holdalls. Zephyr Looms and Textiles. November 1943'.
I don't think that this info made it to the gun crews who carried the stuff in action or arms storemen who refilled the SP wallets and holdalls, the QM's who indented for the stuff or Ordnance who stocked and supplied it. Or, lastly, the Armourers shops who maintained it all
There were a few pages of relaxations allowed in Canadian production. For example. 300 barrels destined for scrap due to flash eliminator slots misaligned. 200 just machined down (barrel shortened by .25") to machine away incorrect and remachine slots correctly. 100 had re-aligned flash eliminators fitted. Dec '42
WHILE we're here, another one from the copied files. Browning process replaced by phosphating and painting in production '.....will commence during April '43 during the change in gun production'. This could possible be during the change from Mk1m to Mk2 production which commenced then
I asked in Post 1 if anyone was able to confirm if the oil bottle pictured is of Australian origin/manufacture and so far the question still hasn't been answered.
I come from an engineering and manufacturing background, not military, and so am likely to look at items from a slightly different angle than others with a military background. I am very interested in the design of items of military kit and how and why they may have been made in any particular way.
Another point worth making is that, has the British army not gone back to using plastic oil bottles in it's SA80 rifle cleaning kits?
Don't have access to my notes at the mo but at one point the colour of a oil bottle did matter, bottles filled with oil for cold weather conditions were to be painted green ( so perhaps the different colours of the plastic bottles was intentional rather than a accident of what coloured plastic was available ) I've had See through green plastic, see through brown and the pale/ dirty cream ones. I've a vague recollection that the pale cream ones were associated with the oil issued for the 20 mm AA.
I'll see what I can find when I can get to the P. C.
ATB
Tom
F10. You are quite correct, in your statement. That the SA80 oil bottle has reverted to plastic once again. They are STILL designed to leak oil the same as all other Oil Bottles in Service used to!.......:D
Regarding Bren Spare Barrel Carriers. Have you observed that there is a pocket at the top. & one at the bottom for oil bottles?.....
One is for Temperate/Normal conditions oil. The other for Cold Weather use. Whatever colour or material those oil bottles might have been. THAT was how it was done in British Military usage. I don't recall there ever being a metal & plastic one specifically mentioned. For those Two Differing Tempreture spheres of use. But I may be wrong on this, it was a long time ago now!....:madsmile:
And the SPW also had an Oil bottle of the same shape to fit it's internal pocket as well. Making a Total of Three Oil bottles carried by the Gun Section for the LMG itself. & if you include the Rifles carried by each of the Gun 'Number's in that section. They had an oil bottle inside the Butt of each rifle. They weren't going to run out of lubricating oil in a hurry!......:lol:
I don't know if Tankie or Skippy ever found a part number for the leather stopper washer for the leaky tin or plastic oil bottles but I/we never did. In the 70's or so we used an LV6/MT - something vehicle part number for a rubberised neoprene washer that would fit and stop leaks.
As for the plastic SA80 oil containers made by Helix......... The joke at the time was that they were oil tight - from the outside in!
I only recall 3x lots of oil for general use on small arms whatever the temperature. the old OX-52, OX-18 and OX-24. The most common grease was graphite XG-340. Later we used to get a what was called 'graphited' grease, which was much thinner than the original XG-340 which wasn't actually graphite grease but a commercial; so-said equivalent.
Is it the green bottle that there were problems with leakage, Peter? I believe that the other spray oil bottle is later and may still be current issue?
How did/does the spray oil bottle perform in use? When I saw it first I wasn't over impressed but I haven't actually tried using it.
I do find the green type useful in my workshop as an oil bottle but I only keep it in an upright position on a shelf and so I don't have any potential leak issues.
In the extreme conditions of Borneo towards the end or WW2 the Australians were having a problem with carrying enough oil to keep their MGs running that there was a official mod to remove the spout from a standard enamel water bottle and solder on the one from the MG oil bottle MK I with its associated cap and brush. To be carried in a second carrier attached to their 37 pattern webbing, possibly with the local variation that had a pair of C hooks attached to the back so it could be worn directly on the belt ( more out of the way than dangling on the ends of the braces catching on the cover I assume ).
I used to have one of the wartime economy tin plate MK 3 can that had been painted green, sold it on with a bare metal one when I sold off one of my wartime set up holdalls and wallets.
ATB
Tom
They all seem to leak - eventually!
I'm not sure about the green for tropical or cold climate notion. If this were the case, it would definately be identified in the user handbooks/EMER or Inf Trg pamphlets
It was in a collection of Army Council Instructions printed in 1943 which also lists other documents such as List of Changes that Armourers should be aware of as well as Equipment Regulations, routine procedure army forms etc. Specifically it expands on ACI 1356 of 1940 . I can send the whole document down the wire to anyone who sends me a email address. Originally 3000 copies were printed to be be sent to unit armourers and no doubt there were updates later in the war. It also refers to the ACI 361 of 1940 about Graphite grease and its use in the tropics. There's a table explains which of 4 types of grease or oil is to be used on which gun in which situation.
The relevant bit is
"Oil, low cold test, No. 1" will be carried in any " can, oil, M.G." of existing pattern. Cans used for this purpose will be painted GREEN by the units concerned to identify them from those used to contain existing oils.
Demands for "oil, low cold test, No. 1" and for the supplementary " cans, oil, M.G. " will be submitted by units and T.A. Associations ( for Home Guard units ) on or after 15th October 1940, on the scale of one " can, oil, M.G." ( of any pattern ), for each automatic weapon and 1/2-pint of "oil, low cold test, No. 1" for each gun or machine carbine a year.
Bare in mind the winter of 1939 /40 had been exceptionally harsh and we had just had our arses kicked in Norway so failures in lubricating in cold conditions was probably on the minds of the powers that be.
I believe the Canadians pretty much followed our lead so if they had decided to change to plastic ( which probably wouldn't respond to paint very well at this stage ) it would be logical to order two colours of plastic. And Let's face it Canucks know about the cold! I'm sure they would have been pretty keen on issuing cold weather oil.
In a file at the pattern room library ( that was ) on the development of the Bren holdall there's a note dated August 1940 that mentions the need for carrying two extra lubricants , graphite Grease and " low cold oil"
ATaB
Tom
I'll have a look in the training manuals more in a bit.
But these ACI's seem to be a bit of a red herring as they pre-date the introduction of the green PLASTIC oil bottles so far as we can tell Tom. Painting the tin ones, yes. Green plastic, no! And in any case, the universal Oil OX52 had replaced OIL, low cold test and others by about 1952.
Here's what I had written down about the oil cans and the CES
BOTTLE, oil, Mk 4 or IV B1/BA 0053 made of brass or Mk 5 B1/BA 6230 of black painted steel, black Bakelite or clear plastic. A part number commencing B1/BA should identify this as being originally issued for use with the rifle. According to which era the reader is interested in or the theatre in which serving, there might be 2 oil bottles in the Bren kit. The first filled with graphite grease and the second filled with Oil ‘A’ or the universal Oil OX52 or more recently, Oil OX18 the current equivalent. Nowadays, the graphite grease is carried in small tubes, usually marked ‘GREASE, Graphite, XG-340’. There are literally hundreds of makers and variations of this little bottle. The materials include black Bakelite, clear plastic and Steel. Its larger cousin, the;
CAN, oil, MG Mk3 C1/BE 6167 D.D.(E.) 1820 of 02-10-1936 or the Canadian pattern C1/CA 0901 is of a similar ilk. There are literally hundreds of manufacturers and dozens of variations including J&RO., BSM., M617 and S251. These include squared, oval, pressed steel and fabricated with soft soldered joints. The brush is retained into the lid by the leather or fibre seal. This can also found itself taken into use with the Vickers MMG kit too. Another similar can, taken from the Vickers MMG kit this time and perfectly acceptable for use with the Bren is the Can, oil, MG Mk1, C1/BD 0133. Like the oil bottle, depending on the theatre in which the gun served, there could be two oil-cans in the gun CES. The first filled with normal oil ‘A’ or the current equivalent and the second, filled with cold test oil. ACI 1356 of 9-11-40 ordered the painting of the latters cans green to differentiate them. From an examination of the CES so far, readers will see that during the life of the Bren, things have changed in many subtle ways. For a Bren enthusiast or collector setting out a CES of, say, 1970 would find it differed slightly from one of 1940.
But surely if you were already using green painted as well as unpainted metal tins from 1940 if you , the Canadian government, decided to replace them with plastic ones in 1943 then you would want to maintain the existing colour coding by making both green and another colour. At some point, when production levels were sufficient they started to supply the British and Australians. Does anyone have a date for when plastic bottles, of what ever colour started being used by the British? When the Canadians went home after the war I know large stocks of kit, spares what have you, were left in Europe, would this be a source of all the plastic bottles?. The 1944 and 1945 MK 3 illustrated parts lists don't list the Canadian plastic bottle, nor the 1947 for all marks. Yet the lists for the L4 series refer to the Canadian pattern bottle.
The 1949 VAOS for MGs Mounting and Appurtenances only lists the metal bottle but the 1960 version lists both.t
The Canadian can was introduced and made obsolescent in the Same List of Changes C9269 of 1959 as a alternative to the metal ones, no clue as to when actually first on issue over here.
ATB
Tom
And just to add even more to the Pot & confuse things. :madsmile:
The 7.62mm LMG Oil bottle, was an original Bren brass metal type. Over sprayed in olive green, with yellow lettering upon them!
The lettering was very clear & nicely done......:thup:
---------- Post added at 01:47 AM ---------- Previous post was at 01:41 AM ----------
The clear Plastic spray bottle is issued with the MK.III SA80 Cleaning kits. It is a black zippered nylon pouch, much smaller than the MK.I & II Green nylon Roll Holders. They still leak of course, as all oil bottles do. :rolleyes: But only a SMALL amount & are MUCH better in containing the oil!Quote:
Originally Posted by Flying10uk
The larger Oval containers have black plastic caps. Made from a hard plastic that is very Brittle. & the caps DO fracture with regular monotony!...
I too, have one on my workshop shelf. Also kept upright, it did have a broken cap with the brush inside the lid. I replaced the cap & reinserted the brush.
It now serves on, lubing & cleaning all manner of small Engineering tasks! ;)
Does anyone have an Australian issue Bren wallet and spare barrel webbing or canvas case with the correct Australian manufactured/issued marked oil bottles, please? If so could we see some pictures, please, especially of the oil bottles, if they are Australian marked. Thanks
I don't know when the last Brens went out of service in first/front line/rear echelon troops in Australia. Muffer? The ones we had for the L4's were the usual UK issue '44 colour dark green webbing WITHOUT the modified wallet*. In Australia they didn't need to concern themselves with low temperature oil - especially where we were!
* had extra pockets sewn in for 4 part cleaning rod
I have a NOS Australian wallet but without any of the contents and, off the top of my head, I can't remember the date marked on it, if visible. I will see about digging it out and having a look at but working from memory I think it may be made by Slazenger.
If I recall right the wartime, canvas rather than webbing Aussie Slazanger wallets I was importing back in the 90s as they were dirt cheap, with MK I tools and full spares tins all had the original metal bottles but with very rough soldering and no markings on them at all. The 1970s plastic L4 wallet I still have but is heading for the eBay pile along with all the post war Aussie kit, has a standard metal bottle but better made, as well, on the base is a badly printed oval with C arrow W inside, which I've always assumed is a variant of a Canadian mark that I've so far not found a reference to. Paint that is rather than stamped into the metal.
The Aussies did things there own way, as late as 1943 ( I think, the scans are on the PC at home in the shed) they were issuing instructions about holdalls still showing the two piece MK 1 cylinder cleaning rods and only then announcing the issue of new holdalls with a pocket big enough to take a filled wallet. The ATR or MGO was a poor photo copy so I did one of my infamous red backed layouts to reproduce the original photo, breach block and all. If I could retain the info about how to put up photos I'd stick them up here.
Perhaps if the nice chap who bought my Aussie holdalls and wallets off me reads this thread he can have I look at the bottles I sent. They all came out of Australia, even if they were maybe manufactured elsewhere.
ATB
Tom
But while there are 'differences' of course, the 'differences' really equate to different methods of manufacture or interpretation it seems to me
At the end of the chapter I wrote regarding the CES (one of the longest too I should say) I mention that just the variables likely to be encountered in the wallet the holdall and the contents would warrant another book in its own right. Forget the oil bottles and cans......... you could almost do another book about just the combination tools........
Just read the chapter again......... phew! almost 13,000 words alone. It's important to note that the contents of the SPW and holdall changed/varied and had several incarnations during its life with the Bren and L4 guns. While I was clearing my mums house out, I found the tool roll from my dads last Vauxhall car, a Viva. Yep, a spare parts wallet with points and condenser in the pocket part, tools and useful bits and pieces elsewhere and all rolled up around a set of spanners!
Were all the Canadian spare barrel holdalls made of a canvas type material; the example I have is? In my opinion it seemed a better choice of material than webbing by, perhaps, being a little more "waterproof". However, the limited number of Canadian wallets that I've seen have all been made of webbing. Did Canada have canvas type wallets as well as the barrel holdall?
This might interest you guys perhaps?
A former Small Arms Manufacturing Company I worked for, for 11 years. Also had a storage 'Facility' on a Farm in the next Villiage.........(Non Sensitive stuff naturally) & amongt many differing items, including a mountain of 3" Mortar Bipods spares. Was a large pile of unissued tan webbing & canvas variations.
Of the Bren Spare Barrel Carriers. A LOT still with original stores labels attached. The Boss wanted more space for other new stuff to be stored. &.....as '37 Patt webbing was LONG Obsolete & was definitely NOT selling. Or indeed, had any demand from Military Forces Worldwide that we dealt with.
The Boss decided to get rid, 'Burn it all' He said!! Well, as a good Armourer with Excellent Clearing up 'Husbandry' Skills. This felt wrong to Me...Though I understood his logic perfectly.
So I decided to 'Rescue' them all. I asked If I could have them instead, & he agreed. As this was quicker & labour saving in Total. So lunchtime, I drove my Old Austin Maestro Van up the Farm & loaded up all of the wallets. They were stacked VERY neatly in the back, so as to get as many as I could in there.
All in string tied bundles of 10. I JUST managed to get the whole lot neatly ensconced in the Van. With a Feeler gauges thickness both top & side to spare!
It worked out that there was one thousand of these wallets in Total! Now, where to dispose of them?.....After many phone calls to dealers & Friends I knew who might know what to do/ where to offload them. I finally did a deal with former well know Trader in the South of the UK. On the coast.
I sold the lot for one pound ( £1 ) Each, so as to shift the entire batch in one hit. They cost me nothing, so anything that covered my fuel cost, was OK by Me.
I never took cash for them, but got a credit note. So....Every time I visited his very large warehouse/shop. I chose/took stuff that I wanted & it was deducted from the credit note. It took Me 2 years to use it al up! LOL. but did get me some interesting items for my own collection.
The mindset of the Civy manufacturer is to make profit, as it is after all. A Civil Manufacturing Company. If something has no tactical value to the Military, it will not sell. if it doesent sell, it has no value to the manufacturer!...The do not think about collectors, as we are small fry. & they want to sell thousands of items at a time. Or, VERY expensive items singularly. To them as long as there is a large sum involved. It doesn't matter what type of product it is. as long as it WILL Sell!!....
Then there was the time..........OOPS! I'm rambling again! Cheers! :cheers:
One of those might interest the blokes things....... The holdall was pretty redundant right from the word go and certainly in my service life it was so far as Military Training goes. The 2nd gunner in the Bren team would carry the second barrel tucked across his chest, between the pouches and the cross-straps together with the important spare parts wallet. This was important because from the early 60's or so it carried the extra cleaning stuff for the rifle section such as the 4 piece screw-together cleaning rod, oil and graphite grease, a few spare Bren and rifle parts. So far as the section commanders were concerned the holdalls were just extra kit to carry and as useless as........, the tripod! And like the tripods, just filled up space on the G-10 store shelf
Most things 'on the shelf' had a second sort of tacit use..... like the wallet used as a simple tool roll or simple range tool kit wallet. But I can't think of any other use for the holdalls - except as a carrier bag for a Sten (useless of for the Sterling though!).
Depending on the operation, the 2nd gunner might or might not carry a rifle but he'd have an SMG (or a pistol).
The Canadian Bren holdalls were made both ways. Some of webbing and some of canvas.
---------- Post added at 12:47 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:46 PM ----------
All of the Canadian wallets I've seen were webbing.
The silver coloured metal ones are actually all brass with some sort of coating on. If you scrape off the dull silver layer, it will show brass.
I've seen some so called "short holdalls" advertised on eBay as being a late L4 version holdall which is not intended to carry a spare barrel. It is advertised as only being intended to hold the wallet and cleaning rod and other associated bits apart from the spare barrel. I have never actually seen one of these so called late version "short holdalls" in the flesh. Is it correct that there was a late version holdall for the L4 Bren that didn't have provision for a spare barrel or is this item intended for another use?
The late L4, the A4's onwards, didn't have a second barrel so that's the correct holdall (I know some are going to say '.....ah, but the A5 had two'. But that flies in the face of the Navy BR's, the EMER's and reality!)
Here are some pictures of the modified wallet, intended for the L4 Bren, which I think Peter was referring to in Post 42.
Here is a picture of another L4 wallet which I have showing the contents. There are some SLR spares that should be in the tin which I don't have; I've only got a SLR extractor, as can be seen.