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Hey guys I was playing with my Inland and shot up some the Lake City I have been hoarding for years and went I went to resize and decap it I found a single hole Berdan flash hole. I think I remember some Chinese or Korean ammo that was stamped LC but I don't remember the years. I think this may be some of it.:thdown::mad::dunno:
I ran into the same thing a few years ago when I was shooting an Iver Johnson. It was LC head stamp. Broke hand decapper before realizing it was not boxer primed. It also had a year stamped on it but I don't remember what that was, 59 seems close but I thinking it was in the low 60s.
A single hole Berdan flash hole?
Here's pics of LC 52 Chinese carbine ammo known to be corrosive. - Bob
And, with two holes denoting Berdan...
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo..._zpsyaq7-1.jpghttps://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...zpsazxe5-1.jpg
The "Berdan" primer system was invented by an American ordinance officer named Hiram Berdan, around 1870, ironically the system is used more in the UK, Australia, South Africa and Europe than the USA where it originated.
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...blqjhgif-1.jpg
The "Boxer" system was invented by a British army officer Edward M. Boxer around 1880, but the system is used more in the USA than UK.
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...39cx3gif-1.jpg
info taken from wikipedia
And it is corrosive.
Yes sir Jim one single offset hole. I have twenty of them right here and I had never seen them before either. I bought that can of loose of LC at a gun show about ten years ago and I have shot some of it before and all standard boxer primed.
USGI that looks just like it but the head stamp is 59. Thanks guys appreciate the info.
Very interesting. Wonder if they're made wrong...?Quote:
Originally Posted by TDH
Jim--
I seem to remember Boxer primed flash holes being slightly off set in some production ammunition. I also seem to remember a study being done to determine to ascertain if the off-set flash hole had a detrimental effect to the performance of ammunition and the study was inconclusive that there was no real different perfectly centered flash holes and cases with slightly off-center flash holes. The only way to really see if the cases are Berdan primed is to remove the primer and see if the primer anvil is built into the rear of the case. some time you can look into the opening of the case and see were the primer anvil has been punched into the case. Slightly off-set primer flash holes are the bane of us reloaders as they can break off the de-priming pins.
Cheers
--fjruple
Yes, I've broken the odd pin. Not too much in the present though, not now that I can almost ID them at a distance...
Home defense Ammo for your 30 Carbine
30 Carbine 85 Grain Xtreme Cavitator - Underwood Ammo
Frank,
I have never seen anything like that. There seems to be an upsurge in hot (+2,000 fps) self defense Carbine ammo. While never having to use it for such, I would think any brand of 110 grain soft point up close and personal would be very effective.
Dave
I have also had issues with sticking the small but tapered cases in the F/L die and ripping the rims off. I thought it was me, but the REM-UMC brass has one or two out of 50 that have undersized rims. I never have an issue if I check for them prior to sizing. A friends Underwood seems to find each one and fails to eject. My Inland seems not to care. Maybe he needs a new extractor?
Dave
I've never seen this Ammo at all myself. I just thought I show it because of that. Any Round will do the job if your using a 30 Carbine for Home Defense.
Those bullets look like copper plated "square drive" bits! :super: - Bob
In Canada those are properly known as Robertson bits after their Canadian inventor, like Phillips but less prone to camming out of the fastener. If those rounds were available in Canada they would likely be re branded to "30 Carbine 85 Grain Robertson #2 Shot - Underwood Ammo" depending on the size of the square. :rofl:Quote:
Originally Posted by USGI
Shooting this Ammo through Denim and Ballistic Gel you get no deformity. This guy is shooting the. 45 cal round of the "Extreme Defender".
Underwood Ammo .45 ACP Xtreme Defender - YouTube
[QUOTE=browningautorifle;377601]Yes, I've broken the odd pin. QUOTE] We all have I'm sure. I stopped most of it by using (ready for the gasps of disgust) Lee dies. You hit a berdan and the whole pin and rod push up without breaking and yes if it does happen you break or bend it you really can replace them.
Not from me! Their "stuff" is more affordable and works fine for my purposes. I don't like their shell holder for .30 Carbine though, too loose of a fit and tears off more of the rims. - BobQuote:
Originally Posted by TDH
Then try an RCBS or Hornaday shell holder. I use a lot of Lee dies mainly because of the friction decapping pin but I still have both RCBS and Lyman dies.
Yep, RCBS #17 shell holder works much better than the Lee #7 for .30 Carbine. - Bob
Never too old to learn a new trick. I thought it was the rims (they are SAAMI minimum though) but the S/H is part of the LEE carbide set. I'll have to pick one up.
Bob is that WA side or the OR side of the CRG? I used to get grapes from a guy near Underwood (strange coincidence on a Carbine forum) and have rafted the White Salmon many times. My Steelhead fishing buddy from the Tri-Cities, has picked up many downwind board surfers who ran out of gas with the wind and current.
Dave
I've got the same Lee set that you have - read somewhere that the RCBS S/H works better, so tried it. You'll still mess up some, but not near as many. We're on the OR side - pretty much taken over here by the "boardheads" during the last 30 years, or so. :rolleyes: - Bob
The germans in the last year of WWII produced vast quantities of 7.9mm ammo with one flash hole Berdan primers. the ammo was designated with a "minus" (-) sign after the manufactures 3 letter code. due to excessive drill breakage in the steel cases.Quote:
Originally Posted by browningautorifle
Very interesting...Quote:
Originally Posted by karl schmidt
Offset primer holes are nothing new with USGI ammo. Many times it was considered to be OK as it was not made for reloading just for shooting the one time. I have seen some that could have passed for a Berdan flash hole except most times it's a bit bigger then a normal Berdan hole would be. I guess the US military never gave a thought to us reloaders and we paid for that ammo with our taxes.
The only tell would be the location of an anvil within the primer pocket. No anvil means boxer...one hole irrelevant.
Just found this link in one of Charlie's (painter-guy) old posts today - pretty interesting on the subject of the one flash hole Berdan primed cases! - Bob
https://www.oldammo.com/march06.htm
Yep, good reading.Quote:
Originally Posted by USGI
Chinese Mfg / Berdan Primed
Note:
Compare Head stamp markings closely.
Wider Ejector Groove on Chinese Copy.
Ran into a bit of this Chinese carbine ammo before import of it was banned here. Figured they'd just copied the head stamp off of what they picked up without researching it's actual significance.
Since your bringing this up, there are current sellers advertising the Chinese LC 52 for sale as real Lake City 52. :thdown:
Fortunately the seller shows the box., which removes all doubt.
LAKE CITY .30 CARBINE FREE SHIPPING on orders over $250 | Maryland Munitions | Finksburg | 21048
and also some advertized on GB recently reported https://www.gunbroker.com/item/966624075
LC 52 - The Carbine Collector's Club - Page 2
There is still plenty of it still around.Quote:
Originally Posted by Low & Slow
Here's that Article link: https://www.oldammo.com/march06.htm
Here currently listed on GB is a load of Chinese LC 52. 750 rds, 5 days to go, currently setting at $438.33. Add $40.00 to ship and tax on final total. Currently about 7 bidders.
Probably more listings out there I just stumbled on this one.
****Note the markings on the box, Wide Ejector groove and stapled boxes like mentioned in the article.
https://www.gunbroker.com/item/970304636
Matt,
You hadn't posted when I started. Guess I'm also a Loooonnnggg winded typer. It did take me a while to find the pics I'd just loaded from the auction :banghead:
Don't hit your head Charlie! Its good to have those auction photos saved and posted here. Worth the extra time.
Matt,
I stuck them in the last file I had opened, the one I stuck the picture of my Nephew and Ian in. When I go to 'Save a Image' it opens the last file I had open on it's own. I was looking in my 'M1 Carbine Parts' file, my biggest file. Even bigger now, since I added copies of the above pics to it.
Agree though, good to have the pics. Still miss those we lost here.
The reason I brought up this old thread a few days ago is because I had just found that link in Charlie's old thread showing the "cut-a-way case." I knew that Jim (BAR) would be interested because there had been talk of "one flash hole" cases earlier in this thread. When my oldest brother got his CMP Inland in 2007 (under $500) he picked up several boxes of the "Chinese" ammo near his location in CA. For the next 6-7 years he came up every summer and we shot the heck out of our Carbines together.
I rummaged around and found that I still had at least one of his empty boxes and had just one empty shell case - which I had shown here several years ago. I had planned to try getting that primer out and inspect the case, but found it has two flash holes - don't know if it would be like the one in that link or not? The article talked about "two holes" but his cutaway doesn't really show that. I still may try to remove the primer, but busy with "other things" right now. If I do, I'm going to try putting a bullet in the case (on top of some oil or grease) and then pressing the bullet down with the case in a shell holder - maybe will just try the vise instead of the hydraulic press.
Charlie, that looks more like an extractor groove than one for an ejector! I've caught myself doing that same thing - also hate Windows putting things in the same folder as last time, but sometimes that can be helpful. I've been careful lately to add a recognizable name to files before saving, so I can find find them a bit easier when that happens.
FYI, the empty "Chinese" box I have doesn't have a bunch of staples in it. Makes me wonder if these are in production again? - since even the supply of Korean surplus carbine ammo seems to be drying up or being hoarded like the USGI stuff a lot of us are hanging onto.
Will attach some pictures from about 12 years ago. Did you guys see where that article made a challenge for someone to try removing one of the primers? I'd like to get one out just to see if they're the same size as our small rifle primers. I know the Wolf/Tula uses quite a bit larger ones. - Bob
Attachment 130148Attachment 130147Attachment 130146
How about that little can opener type tool they show removing berdan primers? Yes, I'm interested in these mysterious cases.Quote:
Originally Posted by USGI
If you pulled a bullet from a live case you could pour out the powder and use a torch to fire the primer, it would blow out clear and you could see for sure.
Maybe the primer on this one of mine will come right out? Never knew about the stuff marked 59 (some 60's ?) until I found this thread! - Bob
I can't see it being any harder than a normal, other berdan.Quote:
Originally Posted by USGI
I got it right in reply #31:Quote:
Originally Posted by USGI
But did indeed blow it in reply #34Quote:
Originally Posted by painter777
I think I was going back and forth between this post and the one by ssgross (African Carbines) where we brought up Ejectors.
Either way I'm busted :banghead:
I'll edit
Article says: The case has two flash holes, one of which can also be seen in the picture.Quote:
Originally Posted by USGI
Is your box 1 piece construction?
Sigman posted here that Berdan can have either one or two holes. Either way the hole is off center because of the anvil.
CMP Forums - View Single Post - LC52 carbine ammo BERDAN!?!?
Photos of the a case cutaway in this thread (see photbucket links at the bottom of page 1)
Carbine ammo question - CMP Forums
Charlie, you have a photo here looking into a case: LC72 - The Carbine Collector's Club
I believe that is USGI Bobs picture !! Sure looks like his fat ole wrinkly fingers.Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt_X
It goes with his other pictures of the box and fired primer.
I found it in that same file... Carbine Parts. Wonder how Bob got them in there ? :madsmile:
Thx Matt :thup:
Geeezzee Bob, I'm lost, trying to watch the race and correct Ejector vs Extractor. When Article reads:Quote:
Originally Posted by USGI
the only apparent difference between it and the other cartridges is its wider ejector groove.
Reading The Cartridge Collector has me all messed up !
Screw it, You know what I mean :beerchug:
2 piece, no sign of ever having staples anywhere - flaps at ends were taped. I would've posted sooner but took me about 2 hours to find it and get a picture!Quote:
Originally Posted by painter777
Attachment 130175
Yeah, a couple of mine from an old thread - maybe 2011. I'll see if I can find a link to it later. I didn't post that one (looking into the case) the other day, since it doesn't show the two holes very well. I would still like to see a picture of one with a single hole.Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt_X
Quote:
Originally Posted by painter777
Those fingers still look pretty good for having lost the skin off just about all of them around 45 years ago. Made (2) desperate tries to screw a plug into a 3/4" ammonia valve (welding slag on the seat) that was spewing liquid. It was on a catwalk about 26' up and finally got it on the 2nd trip up the ladder. Biggest problem with the fingers was nerve damage, so often drop small items now without even knowing it.
On the race, I'll be watching tomorrow for sure! Maybe will try getting that primer out if they have any delays. Was going to look up to see what kind of weather they're having - but didn't get around to it. - Bob
Edit: Here's a link to the last page of the thread where Charlie found the pictures. https://www.milsurps.com/showthread.php?t=7500&page=3
I'm with you there Bob, mine was frostbite though...Quote:
Originally Posted by USGI
I took the primer out of that "Chinese" LC 52 case about a month ago. Since it's not the "single hole" design, there's nothing special about the primer pocket. I used a bit of grease in the bottom of the case along with a steel rod about .300" diameter and the primer came out very easy.
Attached are pictures showing the deprimed case, the wider extractor groove, the outside and inside of the primer, the original box, and (2) pics showing the headstamp alongside a real LC 52 fired case. I checked that wider extractor groove against a Korean PMC case I have and it looks nearly identical. So, nothing really new here. The last picture shows the sectioned case from the "Old Ammo" article.
Makes me wonder if he would've just fired that cartridge instead of cutting it, the primer would've come out just as easy as mine did? We may never know unless someone else comes up with one of those "odd ball" cases. If it does actually have two holes, where is the other one located? - Bob
Attachment 130490Attachment 130489Attachment 130488Attachment 130487Attachment 130486Attachment 130485Attachment 130484Attachment 130491
I'll bet it comes out the same.Quote:
Originally Posted by USGI