What's wrong with my Ishapore?

I have a .308 Ishapore that I've never shot, mostly because (I think) the safety acts funny. The only other SMLE I have is a .22 trainer, so I don't really have much of an understanding how these things are spoda work. This is what happens:

Cock the rifle and pull the safety lever back. Bolt is now locked.
Pull the trigger and you can hear the sear release. The safety lever moves back a mm. or so. I'm pretty sure this is a bad thing.
If I push the safety lever forward, the cocking piece jumps forward about 3/8" but not (I don't think) far enough for the firing pin to protrude. In order to clear this I have to pull the cocking piece back to the full cock position.

ANY ideas?

There is very definately something wrong with your rifle big time. Do not load a live round into it until I have come back to you early tomorrow morning UK time.

Whan you rotate the outer part of the safety rearwards, that part is the LEVER LOCKING and the multi-start thread moves the inner part, the SAFETY CATCH inwards. The safety catch only locks the bolt in the closed/down position.

The inner end of the LOCKING LEVER has a small half diameter half moon and as you rotate the lever, this half moon will also rotate and as it does so SHOULD slightly lever the cocking piece (and therefore the striker) away from ANY contact with the sear. Now, if you squeeze the trigger, it is totally disconnected from the cocking piece and is totally safe.
CLEARLY, YOUR COCKING PIECE IS NOT FULLY DISCONNECTED FROM THE SEAR and this is dangerous

It would appear that as you release the locking lever (and safety catch) the cocking piece goes forwards and falls into another safety part called 'half cock'. This prevents the rifle firing under certain circumstances.

You MUST get this fixed ASAP. It would appear that the half moon of the outer lever locking is worn away - or faulty.

Some of the more expert will come on board but suggest that a properly qualified Armourer with experience in these things take charge here. Safety related and all that is no place for enthusiastic amateurs or home gunsmiths I'm afraid.......... Good luck. Try Brian at BDL Ltd in SC. There are others of course

SMLE Safety Catch They also have a selection of cocking pieces and other parts. SMLE No.1 Mk.3 Receiver, Bolt, & Sight Parts

When it comes to safety related issues I would always err on the side of caution. And even if Chris does get and fit the parts himself he MUST get it checked over by a competent person. Even if it's just a dry test that covers all the bases. And don't forget...., and we all know someone that has....., that an amateur can assemble the mechanism wrongly. And I freely admit that when I have worked on my car brakes I take it to my local friendly garage and put the car on the rolling brake tester.

I wonder if Chris will be back

It gets uglier/more confusing. If I hold the safety lever back firmly, it works as it should. I continued the checkout and discovered that it doesn't headspace - the chamber is a bit short; a GO gauge will not close up all the way. A dummy cartridge with new Winchester .308 brass will, but one with new German 7.62x51 brass will not. Starting to feel like more of a bolt problem than a strictly safety lever problem. This is rapidly approaching the limit of my comfort zone!

If this were a Mauser or a Springfield I would be much more at ease; I understand them, but the whole SMLE action I find scary

Take it to someone who does feel at home and comfortable with it then - as suggested in thread 3!

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Originally Posted by Chris Sweeney

the chamber is a bit short; a GO gauge will not close up all the way.

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I doubt it’s the chamber, Chris. A more likely culprit is the bolt head. That’s because there’s a selection of different sized bolt heads that are used to headspace the rifle.

With a lot of use over time, the receiver of these Ishapores can stretch, creating too much headspace. To rectify the excessive headspace a longer bolt head can be used. A bolt head that’s too long will not give enough headspace.

What you have written so far makes me think it is not a bad idea to follow Peter’s advice. That’s a safe way to go. Your rifle might just need a little tweaking or it might be past its safe useful life.

Just a little correction if I might be so bold Vince. It's not STRETCH in the body that is the cause of problems because bodies are never under tension and don't stretch as such. (They are always under compression and there was a long technical thread about this misunderstanding earlier somewhere*). The actual BOLT is also under compression and wear takes place at the locking shoulders on the bolt and in the body.

Now that it's been established that there is a mechanical safety problem AND a bolt/headspace issue, it definately needs a pro to sort it out.

*that's the reason our partially cut Bren in an earlier thread would function perfectly

Well the headspace problem is solved - I think. The extractor hook tip was bent back and it had about a gajillion pound spring in it (it was also full of dried grease) With the extractor removed it headspaces OK on the GO gauge and doesn't close on the NOGO. Two more parts for the BRP order!

As a matter of interest, what headspace gauges/measurements did you use with this rifle. I ask because your bolt action rifle has a specific headspace and it's not the usual L1A1/FN FAL spec either but closer to the L42....., sort of......, nearly!

Another small correction is that there is no selection of bolt head lengths to correct headspace issues on the SMLE. Only the No.4 had a variety of sizes and once fitted the first time, the measurements are all over the place so the only way to know is to physically measure them and disregard the number stamped on. The only way to correct headspace on an SMLE is to get a long bolt head and stone it down on a piece of plate glass until it's in spec with the HS gauges. Having had more than my fair share of the RFI 2A and 2A1 rifles through here, my first suspicion when headspace is out of specification is that the thin hardening in the body is worn through and the bolt locking lugs are setting back.

'...........Having had more than my fair share of the RFI 2A and 2A1 rifles through here, my first suspicion when headspace is out of specification is that the thin hardening in the body is worn through and the bolt locking lugs are setting back........'

Brian, you can tell shooters this a thousand times and they'll swear that it's the body stretching. Even the long in the tooth old timers tell me that the bodies 'stretch'. It's all to do with the mystical arts of the full moon, Stonehenge and Halloween that causes bodies under compression to stretch

I have a set of Forster .308 go/NOGO gauges.

If it was a problem with bolt setback, wouldn't the head space be too long? It's measuring a short chamber. With the GO gauge the bolt won't close that last few degrees of rotation.

RFI headspace specifications are 1.633 GO and 1.642 NO GO. I forget what the Forster SAAMI gauges are except for the FIELD which is 1.638. If your rifle won't close on the GO gauge, it's over headspaced and should be relieved a bit. However, so many take bolts apart and have no clue whatsoever how to reassemble them properly that I would be hesitant to change it without inspecting it first to see if it's fitted together properly in the first place. Bolt lift and overturn are key. I can tell you from experience with many 2A/2A1 rifles, that yours is the exception to the rule if too tight. They are almost always out of specification. It's important to get them right because the 7.62 round is definitely pushing the limit on pressure with the SMLE body.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Brian Dick

RFI headspace specifications are 1.633 GO and 1.642 NO GO.

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My gauges are marked 1.630 and 1.634. If the RFI spec is 1. 633 then I am really short!

The bolt will lock up (albeit snugly) on dummy cartridges made with a variety of brass (US, S. African, and German Nato; and Winchester and Federal .308.

I ended up having to replace both the safety catch and the locking bolt in order to fix the first problem. I was surprised to find out how little wear it takes to make these parts bad!

Is the bolt serial number matching to the body on your rifle? My wild *** guess would be someone has screwed with it if it is matching. I would have to disagree on the safety parts. It takes quite a lot to wear them out.

Perhaps someone changed the bolthead just because. Perhaps the rifle was more recently assembled after parts were pilfered for something else.

My bolt has the original s/n.

My comment re: wear meant that I was amazed how little visible wear it takes to render the safety inop, not how quick it wore.
The only marking on the bolt head is crossed sabers (crossed signal flags?) (scissors?). The face is pretty smooth but it measures a little out of square - .640 on one side and .638 and change opposite. Don't know what the spec is. Gun has a Numrich Arm import mark so who knows what kind of junk it was built from.

Gun seems to have a very long throat. One of my dummy cartridges has a loosely fit bullet that I set out very long so as to get an idea of chamber throat length (close the bolt and it will push the bullet in when it touches the rifling). I pushed the bullet out to the absolute max that would fit in the mag. Didn't seat the bullet in a bit!

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Originally Posted by Chris Sweeney

My bolt has the original s/n.

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Yes but the head could have been pilfered and then slapped on a replacement. The long throat will show it's been a range rifle and shot it's share...

I think that there's a general consensus of opinion here, highlighted now by the fact that the face of your bolt head isn't square/.002" out of true, that your rifle really does need to be inspected by an expert in the craft and then fixed. You'll just have to accept it now Chris. It's becoming a bit like fixing your car with a phone call to the garage