91/30 "explosion"...PICS

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10-29-2016, 02:43 PM
rum_runner

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91/30 "explosion"...PICS

Pics below are of a 91/30 that WAS in great condition. I had ran 200+ rds. thru it with no problems, before giving it to my Son-in-Law. He did another 200+.

While shooting it with one of his friends and friends wife...THIS happened.
She somehow managed to get a round into the chamber, then, tried to chamber another round! 2nd round acted as a "firing pin" on chambered round. Resulting "explosion" blew the 2nd round out...taking part of the extractor with it. Chambered round fired, with rim separation, which lodged in her "pinky". Luckily the 2nd round didn't hit her. The "broken shell" was still lodged in the chamber.

I managed to get the bolt out, extracted the shell, and after inspecting the bolt, receiver, and all related parts this was the damage I found (pics).

I think the bolt head is "toast" as I haven't been able to get the extractor out.

I have another stock. I can get another bolt head, but, I will have to spend another $30 on a head space gauge. Is there any other way to check head space?
Has anyone here replaced a bolt head with no problems?
Should I even build this rifle back?
10-29-2016, 07:41 PM
cipherk98

My guess on how it happened - she chambered a round, something felt odd when she pushed the bolt home and didn't close it or thought she didn't feed a round (Thus never engaging the extractor), opened it back up which fed a new round, then BLAM. Very, very lucky to escape serious injury. There are several members on here who can guide you on fixing the stock, or possibly fix it for you, but if you have a stock that is the most expensive part - they are now selling for as much as you probably paid for the rifle, $80-100.

As for headspace the tough thing is there will be no easy fix if you have too much (ie it closes a field), whereas too little headspace can in theory be fixed with a chamber reamer by a gunsmith. So to find one that fits correctly or will only need the chamber reamed you'll need a bunch handy. I honestly don't know how hard it is to find a good fitting one. A few years ago I'd say hit up a gun show but now tables of junk and beef jerky have replaced the parts guys at all but the biggest shows. I do know Omega has new extractors for $15 but I don't know a source at the moment for bolt heads. For the prices on bolt heads and extractors you may just be able to find a complete bolt but it doesn't solve the headspace issue.
10-29-2016, 08:52 PM
HOOKED ON HISTORY

Thanks for sharing the cautionary tale. Glad only the rifle was seriously wounded.
10-30-2016, 06:44 AM
Eaglelord17

I have seen what you describe happen before (not the blowing up part, rather the trying to chamber a round on a round already). In fact last time I was at the range I saw it, where a newer shooter was trying to chamber is rifle and I could see him slamming the bolt backwards and forwards trying to chamber it. I had to go over and show him what he was doing and how he was facing a nasty kaboom. Very glad no one was hurt (or at least seriously).
10-30-2016, 08:05 AM
Daan Kemp

Looks like the crack in the stock was waiting to happen some time. Fixing the stock should be an interesting and enjoyable activity with lots of history to tell later. There are good how to's on this site to fix such cracks permanently.
10-30-2016, 09:26 AM
CINDERS

Had a similar thing happen with a Mosin shooter at our range @3.5 years ago umm was not a good outcome for either party the rifle is now a wall hanger and the shooter had a trip to the hospital to have his hand fixed up not to serious but enough to raise eye brows lots of claret. Was the same set up; chambered a round thought they had a mis-feed and stove piped with the second round resultant explosion literally.
I was not present but was there a week later and found out about it the thing that got me there was no formal investigation about the A.D as there are a few of us there qualified in safety and the I.C.A.M, Taproot or the Apollo process they all use the same principles to get an outcome.

How common is it for this style of weapon to stove pipe rounds, what is needed to raise people awareness to the possibilities of this type of event, can a training package be developed at club level and what inspection may assist in lessening the occurrence of this type of event. This I ask in the interests of safety for all.
Thoughts gentle men!
10-30-2016, 03:38 PM
rum_runner

Thanks for the info Guys.
For now this one's sitting in the safe. I've got 3 more nice ones...however none will be going to the Son-in-Law this Christmas!
10-30-2016, 06:36 PM
Eaglelord17

Quote:

Originally Posted by CINDERS

How common is it for this style of weapon to stove pipe rounds, what is needed to raise people awareness to the possibilities of this type of event, can a training package be developed at club level and what inspection may assist in lessening the occurrence of this type of event. This I ask in the interests of safety for all.
Thoughts gentle men!

The problem is the design snaps the extractor over the rim very late in the chambering process. If you didn't realize you were chambering one and pulled the bolt back before the extractor engaged you would now have one in the chamber and could feed one from the magazine. I won't lie, I have had it happen to myself, but that being said I noticed and didn't try to slam the bolt like some might when confronted with that type of problem.

It is also interesting to note the Germans had a very similar problem on their Gewehr 88 rifles. The way the Gewehr 88 bolt head was designed was that the round didn't have the extract snap over the rim until the bolt was fully in battery. The problem was that it could leave a round in the chamber if you didn't close the bolt enough and someone could slam their bolt forward with a new round. The solution was to modify the bolt heads by making it so the bottom of the bolt head was exposed so the round slipped under the extractor earlier. The other part of the solution was to ensure troops were given proper training to recognize and verify the chamber was clear before slamming the bolt home.

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/_2bspPfdWvI/maxresdefault.jpg

If you reload for the Mosin Nagant, I would highly recommend staying away from Federal primers as they tend to be much more sensitive.
10-31-2016, 10:52 AM
Sentryduty

Quote:

Originally Posted by CINDERS

How common is it for this style of weapon to stove pipe rounds, what is needed to raise people awareness to the possibilities of this type of event, can a training package be developed at club level and what inspection may assist in lessening the occurrence of this type of event. This I ask in the interests of safety for all.
Thoughts gentle men!

I have over 800 rounds through the two of mine and have never had this issue. Like any military weapon the actions to manipulate it should be positive and forceful. There are a lot of bad habits developing from poor weapons handling, users cycling firearms like they are made of glass, press checks, and so on.

Firearms accidents are unfortunate but many stem from a lack of weapons handling training, many courses stress safety to the point, however very few address actual operation and shooting of firearms. As a former military member, I hold a training mindset with "guest shooters", everyone gets a quick "crash course" in the firearm. Location of controls, how to operate it, typical behaviors on shooting, any little nuances of the design, followed with, "if it does not shoot or you are unsure place the weapon down and I will assist you." the shooter should be directly observed until familiarity is achieved at minimum.

From the civilian side I am employed in workplace safety, and I despise over-reaching preventative measures taken after an an incident, in many, many cases the root cause is a lack of adequate training or a failure to follow the procedure as instructed.
11-01-2016, 05:33 AM
CINDERS

I agree with you Sentry when we finally get back to our range which is almost ready after 18 months of repairs (to long a story there) and hold a military shoot employ a pre-shoot meeting for new members.
Like most clubs we have a sprinkling of ex-service men a couple of whom liked jumping out of airplanes taking the new shooters aside with their weapons they use and quiz them about their knowledge on that weapon and how much shooting they have done with it also checking their knowledge on safety with firearms and range rules more like pro-active preventative safety with perhaps as suggested a coaching session.
Sometimes you have be reactive when things have gone south sorta the horse has bolted, we can only learn from it and put in place measures that hopefully stop a re-occurance.
I too feel that restricting the free thinking of people with over bearing/restrictive rules can get people thinking about "Hope I do not do anything wrong" mindset taking the focus off what ever they are doing so clubs need to focus on new upcoming members assisting them in learning the right way to do things.

If anything that really perplexes me in oil/gas and mining they have that many rules & regs, acts, codes of practice and so on but they still manage to kill people but that is outside the scope of this thread and an entirely different forum not for here.
11-01-2016, 11:01 AM
browningautorifle

Quote:

Originally Posted by rum_runner

Should I even build this rifle back?

To answer the first and basic question here...once they've had an explosion of any kind, I don't think it's a good idea to rebuild it or use it's action parts for spares. Take it as a lesson and scrap this one.