Post War use of MG42/MG3 by West German Army

I have been looking on-line to try to establish if the West German Army used the MG42/MG3 in it's original calibre of 7.92mm when the army was reformed in the mid 1950s. My interpretation of what I can find is that it did not, not even briefly, but went straight onto 7.62mm Nato. Is anyone able to confirm that I have understood this correctly, please?

Is anyone able to provide any information on the type of link belts used when the 7.62 Nato round was used with the MG42/MG3. Did this require an immediate change of belt or could the original belts and starter tabs still be used with 7.62 Nato? Is generally a disintegrating type belt used today with MG3 users firing 7.62 Nato or do some use non disintegrating belts? Thanks for any information.

Many of my fellows were involved in the small arms replacement program during the mid '70s in Germany...and they observed the German army using the MG 42 straight across with 7.62 mods. They had examined the guns to find Waa markings and Eagles that had been struck. No MG34s. The belts were the common disintegrating link. Many parts had been modded I should think. There were no issues with the guns performance.

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Originally Posted by Flying10uk

I have been looking on-line to try to establish if the West German Army used the MG42/MG3 in it's original calibre of 7.92mm when the army was reformed in the mid 1950s. My interpretation of what I can find is that it did not, not even briefly, but went straight onto 7.62mm Nato. Is anyone able to confirm that I have understood this correctly, please?

Is anyone able to provide any information on the type of link belts used when the 7.62 Nato round was used with the MG42/MG3. Did this require an immediate change of belt or could the original belts and starter tabs still be used with 7.62 Nato? Is generally a disintegrating type belt used today with MG3 users firing 7.62 Nato or do some use non disintegrating belts? Thanks for any information.

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The first West German "military force" was actually the 1951 West German Federal Border Protection Force who were armed with increasingly heavy weapons (small arms thru antitank weapons), until 1994.

The formation of the Post War West German Bundeswehr occurred 12 November 1955.

The timeline insists that the initial MG42's must have been 7.92 as the "7.62 NATO" cartridge was adopted in 1954 and the MG42 debuted as a 7.62 MG in 1958.

I believe that when the West German Border Police were armed c.1951 with belt fed MGs they were issued 7.92mm MG42's.

MG42/58 was the (initial?) designation of an 8mm MG42 converted to 7.62 NATO.

This also corresponds with Rhienmettals 7.62 NATO "MG1" which began production in 1958.

I wonder what other WW2 weaponry was re-issued after the war. The MG42 and the P38 were re-issued with the latter back in production as the P1.

Were all the MG3's re-manufactured MG42's or some new production too. Was there any initial re-issue of MP44 or MP40, how about K98ks?

I wonder what re-issue happened on the other side of the iron curtain, apart from some Luger refurbishment and reissue, were the East Germans mainly Soviet supplied?

We converted an old MG42 to 7.62mm spec using all West German stuff courtesy of them. Alas, we could never get it to operate reliably. I suspect that the gas assistance at the muzzle wasn't sufficient. Worn body? We also tried the same with some captured in Bosnia. Same!

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Originally Posted by Peter Laidler

We converted an old MG42 to 7.62mm

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I'd think it was the same as the 1919A4s that we did. They required much more than a couple of parts. We all know how that turned out.

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Originally Posted by mrclark303

I wonder what re-issue happened on the other side of the iron curtain,

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They got Warsaw equipment.

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Originally Posted by mrclark303

Were all the MG3's re-manufactured MG42's or some new production too.

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There were also new made guns. Why waste a good gun body?

Good point Jim, I wonder if the legendary MG42 rate of fire was retained with the MG3, what effect did 7.62x51 have on the system?

Yes, they still had a high rate and the 7.62 had no adverse effect. As I said, there were no drawbacks. Still aren't...

Am I correct in thinking that the belt originally used with the MG42 in 7.92 form didn't disintegrate with firing the weapon and came out the other side of the receiver as a complete belt? Thanks for the information chaps.

Yes. That's correct.

The Norwegians found that the best runners of all were the 7.92mm MG42's. They converted them into .30-'06 and 7.62mm, so they had a lot of experience with all of the MG's.

I don't think Norway converted any MG 42's but only converted the MG 34 to 30-06 and 7,62mm NATO

Norway converted a few MG42's to 30-06 for testing. They worked well, but when the conversion was about to begin, the stocks of MG' 42's had been sold!!

See this link for a good article.
http://www.smallarmsreview.com/displ...darticles=1451

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Originally Posted by Flying10uk

Am I correct in thinking that the belt originally used with the MG42 in 7.92 form didn't disintegrate with firing the weapon and came out the other side of the receiver as a complete belt? Thanks for the information chaps.

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DM-1 non disintegrating link was used with the initial 7.62 conversion, and I believe that the MG3 will operate both non, and disintegrating link with no changes between the 2 types.

German / Bundeswher MG3's now in Service, use Non Disintergrating link. It is almost identical to the UK/ N.A.T.O Link. EXCEPT, the links do NOT have a hole drilled through the rounded Loop on top.

As an aside, I have seen GPMG /Mag 58 Alliuminum top covers. Modified to use the DM1 non disintegrating belts as well. & ALSO, left & right hand feed for these belts. I believe they were for Helicopter use. & was informed that they originated from the South African Forces at that time.

The right hand feed T/Covers were a mirror image of the normal left handers! Feed Trays were also Mirror Imaged version too! :cheers:

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Originally Posted by tankhunter

German / Bundeswher MG3's now in Service, use Non Disintergrating link. It is almost identical to the UK/ N.A.T.O Link. EXCEPT, the links do NOT have a hole drilled through the rounded Loop on top.

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I wonder why they gave up on the DM6 disintegrating links. Anyone know?

DM6 links
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...6/11/DM6-1.jpg

I like the DM6 links better than the M13 links. They seem much better suited to the MG3. I never have a problem with them, but I am just range shooting with them.

In my very limited experience 8mm seems superior to 7.62 NATO. The MG42 runs like a top. The MG3 seems to near the limit of the ammunition to work the mechanism. The DM6 links seem to have less friction and help the operation, so I am surprised they gave up on them.

I guess the Norwegians were only Northern European Country to carry on issuing the the MP38/40 too (they certainly made use of those captured German weapons), right up to the late 1980's I believe for second line duty's, primarily with the Airforce I think. I have some pics of a Norwegian Airforce issue MP38 here somewhere.

Here's the Airforce issue MP38..

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Originally Posted by mrclark303

Airforce issue MP38

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Very nice. Wish I had a pic of the Turkish issue one from years ago...

I have heard it suggested that Finland made use of some German weapons post war but I don't know how true this is and don't know any further details. Does anyone know if this is correct?

Norwegian Homeguard with MG 34. (Pic. taken June 1987. Courtesy of the norwegian armed forces media archive). The MG 34 was officially in service until 1993. One of the officers in my Homeguard unit told me he took a platoon leader course in 1994. They still shot with the MG34 on tripod as a heavy MG, so they were around after 1993, untill all were replaced by the MG3.

Attachment 77416

God dag, BME. It’s good to see someone from Norway here. I have enjoyed many visits to Norway and feel privileged to have been shown some incredible private firearms collections there.

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Originally Posted by BMF

Norwegian Homeguard with MG 34. (Pic. taken June 1987. Courtesy of the norwegian armed forces media archive). The MG 34 was officially in service until 1993. One of the officers in my Homeguard unit told me he took a platoon leader course in 1994. They still shot with the MG34 on tripod as a heavy MG, so they were around after 1993, untill all were replaced by the MG3.

Attachment 77416

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Great picture,thanks for sharing, this has turned into a really fascinating thread. Did the G3 replace the .30-06 K98 as the standard service rifle in Norway?

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Originally Posted by mrclark303

I wonder what other WW2 weaponry was re-issued after the war. The MG42 and the P38 were re-issued with the latter back in production as the P1.

Were all the MG3's re-manufactured MG42's or some new production too. Was there any initial re-issue of MP44 or MP40, how about K98ks?

I wonder what re-issue happened on the other side of the iron curtain, apart from some Luger refurbishment and reissue, were the East Germans mainly Soviet supplied?

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East German Volkspolizei 1955, armed with Stg 44s.

Attachment 77424

Something like 300,000 Germans surrendered in Norway in 1945. They left a huge inventory of various weapons and equipment. The Norwegians were quick to use all of the weapons for years.

Beautiful country, both in the summer and the winter. I spent some time skiing the year the Olympics were there.
Haven't been back for probably 15 yrs.
Sarge

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Originally Posted by Littlejohn

East German Volkspolizei 1955, armed with Stg 44s.

Attachment 77424

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Now that's a picture I haven't seen before, so did they also issue the MP40?

It's interesting, the only East German attributed WW2 weaponry I have seen before are the refurbished Luger's (plastic grips with circle design) and film of border guards with K98's.

They always seem to carrying PPSH41's in achieve films.

I have owned this U.K. deactivated MG42 for a while that has had it's designation stamped changed to just M42, presumably post war, but I have no idea who may have done it, or why. It is the only example that I am aware of that is marked in such a way but I also don't believe it to be a MG3 or M53 dressed up to look like a MG42 or they would have got the marking correct? The top cover has been replaced at some point and probably some other parts as well as may be expected with something of this age. I would be pleased to hear of any thoughts as to who may have used it post war and why the designation marking was charged. Thanks for any information.

That's what I'd call '.....been round the block a few times.....' as my old mum used to describe some of my early girlfriends........ The simple reason for previously numbered parts appearing on weaponry is that gun A would come back from a Field, Command or Base workshop in-inspection. It'd have a major fault such as a cracked body or elongated rivet holes or twisted this that or the other so it'd come back with a certificate of condemnation. So when it came back to you prior to return to Ordnance and the hot-axe you'd take anything that was serviceable off it or parts that were in short supply and replace them with worn out stuff. The good stuff goes back on the shelf. When it's used on another bit of kit, it's re-numbered to suit. Simple That's how it works in real life.

Then 30 years later when it is sold off to the public they get into train spotter or anorak mode, read a few books, immediately know best and say that it isn't original! Like I say many times and will repeat until the cows come home. I don't remember anyone coming into our Armourers shop to say that they don't want a BSA trigger, P-H piston, a set of Fazakerley woodwork or a Lithgow barrel on their rifle or GPMG. It might have happened of course but I was probably out.

I believe that the "bnz" marking that is stamped on the lower part of the receiver to be the original factory code stamp but the designation appears to have been changed to just M42 instead of MG42 that is normally seen. It would be interesting to discover which country labeled their MG42s up in this way. An obvious possibility is Yugoslavia but I have never heard any suggestion that they did this.

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Originally Posted by mrclark303

Great picture,thanks for sharing, this has turned into a really fascinating thread. Did the G3 replace the .30-06 K98 as the standard service rifle in Norway?

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Not exactly. The 30-06 K98K's were mainly used by the Homeguard, but also the airforce, navy etc... But not by the army. From around 1950 the army mainly used american arms. The standard rifle for the army was the Garand, until it was replaced by the G3 around 1968. The Homeguard rearmed with G3's from 1969 - 1978. The Homeguard youth organization used the K98K until 1995. Lugers, P38's etc. was in use till the late 80's. Mp40's til early 90's.

Vincent and Sarge: Greetings to you too.

Some pics. on this page. It's from an Airforce NCO school.
Leirlivet i 50 rene - www.lutvatnskolene.com
Leiromrdet - bilder - www.lutvatnskolene.com
Sommervelsen 1967 - www.lutvatnskolene.com

Yes, the bnz is the original WWII Manufacturers code for Steyr, Daimler Puch.
All other markings INCLUDING the orig serial number have been removed. Similarly the top cover when you look at it. Has heavy linish marks on it. Indicating the Waffen Amt inspection stamps have also been removed.

I cannot say for sure, but it was common practice postwar. For Israel to do this to Ex Nazi Weapons impressed into their countries Military Arsenals. They did not do this to ALL Ex Whermacht Weapons strangely?....

The serial number on this particular gun has been hand stamped. The original Number would have been impressed by machine, or machine engraved.

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Originally Posted by BMF

Not exactly. The 30-06 K98K's were mainly used by the Homeguard, but also the airforce, navy etc... But not by the army. From around 1950 the army mainly used american arms. The standard rifle for the army was the Garand, until it was replaced by the G3 around 1968. The Homeguard rearmed with G3's from 1969 - 1978. The Homeguard youth organization used the K98K until 1995. Lugers, P38's etc. was in use till the late 80's. Mp40's til early 90's.

Vincent and Sarge: Greetings to you too.

Some pics. on this page. It's from an Airforce NCO school.
Leirlivet i 50 rene - www.lutvatnskolene.com
Leiromrdet - bilder - www.lutvatnskolene.com
Sommervelsen 1967 - www.lutvatnskolene.com

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Thanks for the pictures, you can safely say Norway got plenty of bang out of Hitlers Reichsmark! I have always admired the professionalism of the Norwegian Armed forces.

A carefully considered equipment plan, like the F16, and very well trained personnel, they would have without doubt given the Russian's a very warm reception had the cold war turned hot.

Thanks for that, tankhunter, which has given me a clue as to another possible post-war user of this particular MG42 which I hadn't thought of. There are several waffenampt markings on this particular deac but not many and not in easy to spot places. Although this MG42 has been well used it is still, in my opinion, in good overall condition and a fascinating collector's piece.

No Probs F10, always glad to help where possible.

Another thing I forgot to mention. In Pic 1, approx. just over an inch to the Left of the serial number. Is a small Star Stamp, it is too far away in the photo. To make a clear identification. I am only drawing on my own personal experience of examining many hundereds of Ex Israelie Small Arms I have inspected/worked on in the past. But, their weapons usually have a six pointed star stamp on them. With a sort of crooked 'Y' in the centre. This is the
Shin Bec Arsenal property marking I believe? I have seen it on just about all small arms that have been through my hands. Very common on Ex Whermacht K98k Bolt Action Rifles, .30" Cal Browning MGs, Etc, Etc.

Incidently, a LOT of Ex German K98s were converted 7.62mm Cailber. This calibre was burnt / branded into the side of the Butt area of the wooden stock. The same as converted to 7.62mm .30" Cal MGs were engraved on the left side plates, & also the top of the Breech Bolts. These too, had the small 'Star' stamp on them.

There you go! Another item of Trivia to Forget! :lol:

Here are a couple of close up pictures of the markings.

Luckily, with the body side marks having been linished off, it is a relatively simple job to resurrect them again using chemicals - or whatever these clever forensic folk use. This is the mistake that the car thieves used to make with chassis numbers. So the true number was easy to identify because the striations remain in the structure of the steel.

While we're here, Tankie mentioned the Israeli 6 pointed star with the oddly shaped Y in the centre. Seen it several times. Anyone any idea what it says/means. You there Jonny C?

Did the MG34 ever get used in the 7.62 role?

Ed

The Norwegians converted a large number to 30-06 and quite successfully.
However, the 7.62 conversion was a problem. They could never get reliable ejections due to the dynamics of the shorter case spinning back into the action.
Several mod's were tried including a "bumper" as used in the original ZB 26 series but the conversion testing was finally dropped.
The MG 34 7.62 conversion will work on a private civilian conversion but not to the reliability spec's required for the military.
The 30-06 conversion was interesting as with the -06" round being longer they forged a grove in the feed tray and ground the receiver to allow for the extra cartridge length.

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Originally Posted by Warren

The Norwegians converted a large number to 30-06 and quite successfully.
However, the 7.62 conversion was a problem. They could never get reliable ejections due to the dynamics of the shorter case spinning back into the action.
Several mod's were tried including a "bumper" as used in the original ZB 26 series but the conversion testing was finally dropped.
The MG 34 7.62 conversion will work on a private civilian conversion but not to the reliability spec's required for the military.
The 30-06 conversion was interesting as with the -06" round being longer they forged a grove in the feed tray and ground the receiver to allow for the extra cartridge length.

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As a matter of interest, my buddy assures me that Sportco 7.62 barrels are THE perfect contour for 7.62mm conversions of MG34's.

I've always suspected that part of the Norge problem was retro modifying .30-06 guns back down to 7.62mm.

They may have had fewer issues with "virgin" 8mm guns...

I read with interest Myrvang's account of the 7.92/.30-06/7.62 mod program
http://www.smallarmsreview.com/displ...darticles=1451

If you look at the pictures in post 36, just above the gap between the "4" and "2", I think that you can just make out the partial remains of the original "G", of the MG42 designation marking.

The star does appear to be a 5 pointed example in this instance; would this still be an Israeli star?

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Originally Posted by Peter Laidler

Luckily, with the body side marks having been linished off, it is a relatively simple job to resurrect them again using chemicals - or whatever these clever forensic folk use. This is the mistake that the car thieves used to make with chassis numbers. So the true number was easy to identify because the striations remain in the structure of the steel.

While we're here, Tankie mentioned the Israeli 6 pointed star with the oddly shaped Y in the centre. Seen it several times. Anyone any idea what it says/means. You there Jonny C?

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I think the y is Hebrew for industries or Military Industries Peter.

The character used (crooked y) is the 'Tsadi', I think it means Tzahal, or Defense Force, ie Army.

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Originally Posted by matthanne1

The character used (crooked y) is the 'Tsadi', I think it means Tzahal, or Defense Force, ie Army.

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Many Thanks for that 'Already, My Life, My Wife,! Gun, Schmun. 'These Guns are not for using. They are for buying & selling Already!' ;) LOL

The Izzies get a bad press sometimes. But they are Innovative in Engineering designs, & I have seen some very interesting stuff made by them.
When you consider their original situation, they have HAD to develop in self sufficiency over the years. Not just to be world leaders in certain areas.
but born out of the very need to survive!

Galil & Uzi are but Two items that sping to mind! :thup:

---------- Post added at 03:44 AM ---------- Previous post was at 03:35 AM ----------

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Originally Posted by Flying10uk

If you look at the pictures in post 36, just above the gap between the "4" and "2", I think that you can just make out the partial remains of the original "G", of the MG42 designation marking.

The star does appear to be a 5 pointed example in this instance; would this still be an Israeli star?

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RE: The Star. No, I would say not in my opinion. It might be an inspection stamp or 'proof' stamp of some kind. But a 'Star' marking was used for MANY
Purposes in many Military Uses. To indicate different things. So we are not really any further forward on identifying this gun's 'cleansing'.

My Money is still shakily on an israellie in service overhaul at one time..........

Here's a pic of the Israelli property mark thingy on an MG34...

Yes TM, very common to see this. & the circled marking beside it is also an israelie one.

I have handled a LOT & owned a few of the dot 1945 dated MG34's similar to this. & Noted, ALL of them also had the Israelie inspection/ property stamps on them!

And also strangely for them, ALMOST all of the 34's still had the original markings & WaAmpt
Inspection stamps intact!.....:cheers:

Not sure if you like people linking to other forums but if it's ok then there is a thread on WAF all about the post war MG34's.

Post War MG34 thread...

If linking to elsewhere is frowned upon then Mod's please feel free to delete.

During the 1970s I brought a large number of mg42s into Canada from Israel. Many of them were in
excellent condition. The israeli military at some point changed all the numbers by re numbering or
grinding some of the number off. These guns had mostly wood buttstock with some black plastic.
Other than that, most of the marking were just over stamped with rebuild or service markings.
I have a few that I kept. The interesting thing was there was a lot of belts that were twice as long as
normal. I was told that they were for fixed location.

can14, could you post some pictures of the numbers that the Israelis changed by grinding and over-stamping, please, and any other Israeli specific numbers on the MG42s that you have left. Thanks.