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Someones been busy with a hacksaw and the Mig welder ... and clearly they also went on a creative writing course!
Possibly the best buyer beware warning to date!
I see some poor sod parted with their hard earned money for this too!
L1A1 SAS 'snub nose' SLR - Rare - Wharton Militaria
Yup, simple horsec#ck. I made one of those years ago, 14" and the F/E cut short and screwed on and located with the washer and rivet. I'd eliminated the bayonet lug though...neat but kind of ineffective. Sold it right away...
Any idea what the example in post 1 went for anyone, please?
As I recall F10, it's been there for a while and the price had more zeros than pearl harbour!
Do you get this sort of "inaccurate marketing" in Canada Jim? I always encourage collectors to tune into Milsurps, get a pot of coffee on, then study the huge volume of freely and generously given information on here, before they part with hard cash.Quote:
Originally Posted by browningautorifle
I have a similar project to yours waiting in the wings Jim, closely based on a Vietnam era chop mod special. Probably get it underway in the new year.
It surfaces everywhere there's a buck to be made. Usually things get exposed before too much money changes hands I think. We don't have the volume of sales in things like FN or 1928 that we recently spoke of here, laws have curtailed most of the activities there. Here you may see a farcically described .303 or some such. Perhaps and "Original" M1 carbine...trench gun...that's more our style. I prefer to believe that happens due to lack of actual knowledge in that area.Quote:
Originally Posted by mrclark303
HO ho ho ho........ How do they sleep at night spouting such horse sh........, er......, manure. I won't go into the technicalities of why it wouldn't self load but it wouldn't. Couldn't someone just tell him he's talking sh........, manure?
I've seen one or two of these flights of fancy appear over the last year or so.
It's a waste of an old spec L1A1, that could have been nicely restored..
By the sound of things, at least they've got the bit in the advert about it being rare correct.
Peter, would that even cycle properly in real life without serious gas block modifications?
Attachment 77828Was just thinking that Paul as there would surely be allot of unburnt powder going out the barrel but I can see where this is going as next week they will have a 100 rounds of this special ball ammo made for the SAS for use only in the cut down version of the SLR.
I may have a quick look through my 40th Anniversary of the SAS by Mick Malone who actually served in Vietnam with the Regiment and see if Mick mentions anything about weapon mods like this I have spoken to Mick on many occasions really nice chap sells military books now for a crust.
All I can say is mine did. I don't recall opening up the gas port either. I may have closed the gas regulator a bit though...Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul S.
And if you check the 'Bargain Basement' Section of this 'Seller's' website. There are also surplus K98k Bayonet frogs Ex German Border guards on 'offer'!!!
Mmm it is documented that post war Border Guards used Ex Wehrmacht Weapons & Equipment in their Early years. Because there was MOUNTAINS of the stuff about! So WHY would they have NEW 'unissued' UNMARKED bayonet frogs?............
I think he probably forget to mention that they were intended for the 'Border Guards' in one of the Factories in India, or china. Who make them for the
Re-enactment Market!!!....................Well, Hush My Mouth!!!.....:madsmile: This has raised a VERY important question: Would you buy ANYTHING from this Seller?...........;)
Didn't/did the Australian SAS use the M16 rifle like it's British counterparts have had a long history of doing so?
They were a bunch of pirates that had a whole assortment of things. Whatever they needed. They used SLRs, M60s and M16A1s.Quote:
Originally Posted by Flying10uk
The Aussie rifle section used two M16A1s, one M60 and the rest were SLR. That was from lessons learned in RVN and that was during 1977.
Our forces only long term borrowed stuff from the US forces in VN BAR you should know that, I should imagine our guys here taught Peter Laidler a thing or two about squirreling stuff away.........!
Pirates indeed Jim!:madsmile:
Pardon me, long term borrowed...pirates indeed!Quote:
Originally Posted by CINDERS
If you google Vietnam SAS L1A1 F10, you will find some fascinating images of ANZAC SAS L1A1/Mods, some simply removing most of the FE and adding full auto capability.Quote:
Originally Posted by Flying10uk
Others involved considerable surgery, with relocated gas blocks short barrels, or grafted on grenade launchers.
All modified in country and available in a miriad of different individual versions.
Some used the L2A1 as the starting point. All in all, a very interesting inch pattern side story.
I feel sure that I/we have skated over this point sometime in the past. And before I go on further, I have to admit that my practical experience here is restricted to the identically principled, gas operated L4 Bren as opposed to the L1A1, subject to the thread in question. The reason of course is that in a lab. Range classroom, it’s simpler to illustrate ever shortening barrels using a quick-change barrel Bren than a rifle! Another point is that I have only ever used 7.62mm NATO ball ammo so this waffle might not apply to you hand loader nerds. Additionally, please forgive me if you find some of the science over simplified. It’s meant to be……
Right, let’s start……. But before we do I should remind you that this is going to get a bit technical so might I suggest that you pit the kids to bed, set the TV to a cookery programme for the wife and sit down with a large glass of fine Scotch.
Right……., Gun in a layer and a round is fired. As the bullet passes the gas port an explosive force of gas follows the projectile and a small portion of this gas is immediately diverted down to impact on the face of a piston. Whether it is diverted onto the piston face via an angled gas plug (Bren) or is directed directly onto the piston via an angled gas path (L1A1) is academic here. But impact on the piston, it does! But there’s more……, a LOT more. That huge blast of gas only remains a huge blast of gas while there is a projectile in the barrel – that’s obvious isn’t it? We’ll come back to that important point later.
While that blast of gas is doing its thing to the piston face it’s doing something else too……… It is imparting energy called INERTIA to the piston. And, once again, it can only build-up this influence on the piston while there’s a bullet in the barrel. When the gas is gone, diminished, vented, neutralised, resumed atmospheric or whatever else you want to call it - the gun is on its own. And anyone that tells you different is either spouting fuzzy logic or has just invented a form of perpetual motion. You don’t get anything for free in small arms mechanisms
This inertial energy that is being imparted to the piston and working parts is going to be doing an awful lot of work for the next 1/10th of a second. And it gets WORSE, because for the first 3/8th “ of its movement rearwards is redundant due to what we call mechanical safety. And if you thought that was bad, there’s worse to come because only after the bullet has left the barrel can the Bren/rifle breech COMMENCE to open. That isn’t OPEN, that’s COMMENCE to open – not quite the same thing!
Going on a bit now…… That gas has had to impart into the working parts sufficient energy to overcome the following things that are acting against it.
Compressing the strong poundage return spring
Friction of unlocking breech block and primary extraction
Overcome friction of top rounds from a loaded magazine acting on breech block
There’s probably a few other things that I have forgotten too……..
We have established that the huge blast of gas is only that while the projectile is in the barrel containing it . So what’s going to happen when you start to shorten the barrel that the scientist at FN, Enfield, Lithgow, Long Branch et-al have considered its optimum? I’ll tell you. After the first inch you will start to close down the gas plug and every half inch after that you’ll start to find that the gun regularly won’t cycle fully. You can cure this by closing the gas vent down (L1A1) or opening the gas plug (Bren). But get past a couple of inches and you have effectively run out of options…… It would not operate or function correctly no matter what we did. And guess why this was? That’s right…………
As the barrel is shortened, so is the time that the bullet is in the barrel to assist and therefore to impart the time/distance that the huge blast of gas available to impart inertia to the piston is diminishing on a logarithmic scale . And it’s this logarithmic scale that quickly eliminates all of the options such as closing the gas regulator or opening the gas plug.
So what do I think when I see these hybrid pieces of someones practical imagination? The irony is that we only see pictures. We never see technical reports or film of them operating. I wonder why?
The gun in the first post looks to have the standard gas system with a shortened barrel. I agree with you, Peter. It's not going to function properly.
Cinders posted this picture in another thread. The gas system looks considerably shorter (top right pic).
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...DSCN4449-1.jpg
DSA sells some short gas system FAL type rifles that have a good reputation. DS Arms - Rifles
I had one and it worked, but that's not to say for an extended period. I did sell it after all. Doubt the next guy used it much. The ones pictured are probably the only ones made. The military takes a dim view of people cutting down rifles for entertainment's sake even in wartime. Mods are prohibited. Ask Peter... The ones that are sold today are re-engineered I'll bet. I've seen the short barrel, short gas model in my hands and it looked good. They must work or they wouldn't be able to sell them. Personally, I'd still rather the full length rifle. They worked fine.
Also this well known example, with the Australian Army collection, there is some film of this thing rocking and rolling on the internet somwhere..
The danger tape would be about right...the flames would burn you from there.
Yup, moving the gas port back would help. But to be fair, mine did that too. Can't say how it is now. Thing is, the M1 rifle had the gas port at the muzzle too. I know, that's apples and oranges...
What I do find totally non-understandable about these 'Australian SAS' special in-theatre blow-up tyres and wind-up window type shorties is this. When the short statured populated nations around the world wanted to buy a shorter variant of L1A1 type rifles, why didn't they simply ask Lithgow to cut the barrels short. Why did they bother pursuing the short flash eliminators. Maybe someone can look up the archives at ADE Maribyong to see how the shorties fared. Even the well thought out improved L2 (that was being trialed at Caunugra in 1969 but I forget what it was called) had a standard length barrel. Like I say, maybe the handy-hacksaw specialists knew better. Just my pragmatic amateur askance view of things.
Moving the gas port rearwards brings with it yet MORE problems. Cleaner gas residue but diamond hard build-up from the word go and .......back to my student notes now........
Quote:
Originally Posted by browningautorifle
The FN49 gas port is relatively near the muzzle too. Maybe still apples and oranges, but a lot of the FAL gas system comes from the 49.
I would guess that shortening the barrel wastes a fair bit of the 7.62x51 cartridge propellant. Something like 7.62x39 would be better suited for the shorter barrel.
Didn't the Papua New Guinea Contract rifles have recoil reducing properties built into the short FE's Peter?? I guess the RAEME guys attached to the ANZAC SAS units in Country, just responded as best they could with the kit they had available (or borrowed from the Americans) to the request for certain kit for specific jobs and it snowballed from there.Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Laidler
There seems to have been a myriad of different variants on the core "Automatic L1" theme.
And give you the basket ball flame in low light.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vincent
As well as roar like a Lion Jim!
Yeah!Quote:
Originally Posted by browningautorifle
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...shortfal-1.jpg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6u4eq_Kgx_s
Yep........ now do the same thing in a dark eerie green jungle environment and at the same time, not be too sure whether the rifle is going to run out of puff and re-cock - or not!
That sounds a lot like the original M16 in the jungles of Vietnam.Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Laidler
You could clearly see the shooter's post ammo letdown there.
As I understand it, (library pictures support this too) most of the Vietnam full auto "chop mods" simply cut back the FE, the idea apparently to make it boom like a .50 cal, so I have read.
It really would be very interesting to hear from veterans who either carried out the work or indeed used them in anger.
It's such a little know part of the inch pattern story, great to finally drag it into the light and get some hard facts.
Well, I carried them for 15 years and some of it in Canungra Queensland, some of in desert and some in the arctic. Most was temperate climate. I can't imagine why you'd want your rifle noisier. The NVA wouldn't be as impressed by noise as they would be by gunshot wounds. More flash gives you away quicker in any case.
Yep, I feel fanciful description, to sell this Deact for more money!.......:rolleyes:
Now, does anyone want to buy an L1A1 with a bolt on cigar holder. Formally owned by Fidel Castro. Full providence can be supplied from my Printer if required. He got it from a WWII Vet who used it at Arnhem, after capturing it from a German SS Stormtrooper who was in Full dress at the time.
I bought it from a bloke down the Pub, who swore on his beermat it is genuine!..........:madsmile:
Yep, I feel fanciful description, to sell this Deact for more money!.......
In this case, considerably more money Mike!
I seem to recall another flight of fancy "special army soldier" folding stock L1A1 on line recently. That example was predictively, a folder Fal TMH with an L1A1 barrel and receiver.
Just a few bored RAEME types with nothing better to do.
At least you could kill and cook your chook with that muzzle flash.........might be a survival thing.
Perhaps they wanted the psychological effect on the NVA troops big noise, flash and heaps of lead in the air. Would not do ones eyes much good either in the dark you would not be seeing or hearing to much for a while. Mick said on the improvised testing range they never wore ear protection either as when they were on patrol you did not have it either.
Also in the book pertaining to the psychological war they used to drop leaflets advising the NVA in Vietnamese the SAS were coming to kill them and to fill in the back of the form as to where they wanted to be buried. From memory from a book I read somewhere the NVA called our SAS "The Ghosts of the Jungle" or words to that effect.
Nobody was wearing ear defenders up until the very late 60's so far as we were concerned. I remember the first ones we were ever issued with in Oz. We all went down to the canteen sort of area where someone from the RAP looked at our ears and decided what size we needed. Then someone else dished out a suitable size. I think that there were 3 sizes, the usual small, medium and large. Naturally (so said), those that were most well endowed in the wedding tackle department got the large ear plugs - and so on, downwards!!!!!!!! They were little pink things with a little tag that the (usually) the Armourers shop would pull out with a pair of snipe nosed pliers when they got jammed in! The training areas are probably still littered with zillions of the things as nobody really bothered using then during rifle, MG or mortar fire. But by heavens....., we noticed the effect when it came to the rocket launchers and recoilless A/tk guns at Ashan ranges. They went off with a huge instant BANG............. that shook your brains out.
Our regular/approved Armourers testing ranges usually had baffled ranges with sound absorbing firing stations. But out on the usual 25m camp ranges it was a hearing free for all. I did fire a 40mm tear gas grenade into the sand butts once and for days afterwards tear gas was leeching out from the sand. Someone came in a few days later and told us that the band practice room had been unusable for a few days because it seemed to be contaminated by a choking gas residue! Don't ask me how we ever got away with these stunts but we were young lads, far from home, the nasho's were counting the days and...........
I recall my training NCOs were new to ear plugs too when I joined. They all joined from '60 to about '67. All suffering from hearing loss too. Ours were an off the shelf civilian pattern that was suitable. It wasn't until many years later they came out with a "Special" type that probable cost zillions to the govt and was absolutely useless. Those went into the garbage...none were intended for combat.
In the Cadets, back in the early 80s, I could never understand why it was insisted that ear defenders were worn at all times on the range but while training with blank ammunition ear defenders were never provided. Can anyone provide an explanation for this, please? It didn't matter if the range was indoors or outdoors, ear defenders were always provided. Perhaps the "bang" from blank ammo isn't as potentially harmful to hearing???
Anyone that's experience the muzzle blast from a live round and from blank ammo will know that there's no comparison.
And no crack of a projectile breaking the sound barrier. I typically shoot my .455 Mark 6 Webley without hearing protection if alone on the range. Really it isn't all that noisy, just a low velocity slug of lead trundling downrange. A .45 ACP on contrast is bothersome to the hearing.
I have noticed that service personnel sometimes seem to use ear protection now while using blank ammunition but I haven't specifically noted what type of rifles/weapon etc were being used. Is there some sort of formula/rule for certain types of blank ammo requiring ear protection?
In the CDN service I am sure it was recommended or written somewhere, but if so it was never enforced.
Even on live fire, if you forgot your plugs and none were available, it was down to sharing or stuffing cigarette filters in the ears. The show must go on and don't be stupid next time was the way of the way of the world at the time.
It's just common sense to preserve your hearing as much as possible really. I would agree that the muzzle blast from a rifle fired next to you at the range (with a break deflector of any sort fitted) in such calibres like 7.62, or worse still .338 is very unpleasant, even with ear defenders, you "feel" the shock wave pass through you .. probably a good cure for constipation though!
If you forget to put your ear defenders on. And your .338 toting neighbour suddenly ... "BOOMS" ... Well, you don't forget again that's for sure!
My father was a National Service REME Armourer, no ear defenders in 1956 that's for sure, it's significantly damaged his hearing without doubt.
I have noticed various pictures in Navy News of Ceremonial parades etc, over the last few years, where the participants have sometimes appeared to have ear plugs/defenders. I guess nowadays it's partly because of health and safety.
Could you repeat that please!Quote:
Originally Posted by browningautorifle
Regarding the NZ SAS use of 'shorty' L1A1 SLR's, it did occur but on a very limited basis. I have made a few for people, both with the full-length gas system and the short gas system. The gas bleed hole needs to be opened up a wee bit but they are reliable and very accurate (much more than the standard L1A1) because of the stiffer barrel.
This is a 'shorty' FAL I made in 2015.
Attachment 77903
Try shooting and being next to someone with a TRG-42 338 LM with a muzzle brake on it shooting factory rounds..... certainly tests the hearing protection
To who do you refer though, made for whom?Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodsy
Not the NZ SAS, they made their own! I made them for various NZ civilian firearms owners, mainly for 3-gun competition, and sometimes for close bush hunting.
Its certainly difficult to concentrate on your target when you are anticipating the pressure wave to rattle your eye balls!Quote:
Originally Posted by CINDERS
That's what I was thinking, not what we're referring to.Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodsy
The SVN and shortie L1A1 connection has been puzzling me for a while.......... Call me an old cynic and all that stuff but.............. The facilities with decent machining down square and re-threading a muzzle and over-boring the gas block and moving it rearwards and turning the barrel to accommodate same and pressing and pinning same and then line drilling the re-positioned gas port and sleeving/blocking up the original now-exposed gas port up and........... and......... didn't (?) really exist at Nui Dat where these units and the Battalions were generally based (not strictly correct as the situation was fairly fluid at the time) had unit based LAD's (light aid detachments). The only decent sized facility with full large Field Workshops that could do this in-theatre was at a place called Vung Tau. And they were generally up to their bottoms in alligators as they say . Anything that couldn't be done there, usually armour and vehicles was either written off in theatre or shipped down to Singapore (or Australia of course) where it was magically repaired by what was called at the time 'mutual allied aid' by those nations that were politically 'neutral'.
So who did these rifles? Local chop jobs just like the one that started this thread?
Peter, as I understand it, the NZSAS shorty L1A1 conversions (there were only 2 or 3 of them) were done by Base Armourers in Singapore. All that was needed was a lathe and an electric drill. These rifles only had the barrels shortened and threaded to refit the flash hiders, and the gas port tickled out to give reliable cycling. It was done in a 4 jaw chuck with the barrel still attached to the body, and the gas system was left full length.Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Laidler
The short gas systems that are now popular came from somewhere else. I know that commercial short gas/short barrel FAL conversion kits are offered in the US.
That'll be the small NZ detachment at 40 Base Workshop then Woody. Shame Major Kim W isn't still with us! I'm sure that when the whole story is finally exposed there'll be red faces from all those nations nearby that were politically neutral. Tanks and 113/armour rebuilt/repaired there weaponry sent there '.....for onward transmission.....' as well as ammunition supplied from there and Malaya when the dockers in Oz went on strike as I seem to recall...................... But least said, soonest mended.
If I am correct in the literature that I have read it seems weapons that SEALS (can have within reason) had the weapons modded from as issued or brought off shelf to suit their individual style requirements for missions (personnal choice) could one surmise that this was the same for the SASR and the NZSAS. The modifications of certain weapons platforms to fill a need was carried out well before VN and probably dates back to WWII with the USA Rangers, British Commando's and the LRDG.
I'm sure that would be the general rule - within reason. But with weapons, in our system it was slightly different according to my colleague WO2 Jock xxxxxxxxxx. Off the shelf 'non service pattern' stuff was rigidly tested to ensure that it was suitable and safe. After all, it's no use having a, (from my knowledge.....) say, silenced SMG with such close tolerances that is incapable of operating in a dusty climate or something that is so fragile to the point of being unreliable. But you get my drift. That's why there is always a xxxxxxx xxxxxxxxxxx xxxx and similar available for advice
The L1A1 is classic, but the ad for the Canadian Flag takes the cake, 1950/60s
era!! We got the flag in mid 60s before Canada 100 year cent
Er......... you've lost me Can14. What flag? What advert? Am I missing something or is it an old age thing.......?
I went back through to find out too...and I remember the flag change...?Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Laidler
I have a lovely sewn Canadian Red Ensign made in the 40's by Annin. I bought it off a guy in Birmingham, Alabama at the AGCA show many years ago. He was using it for a table cover and had his coffee sitting on it so i had to act. Most Canadians now don't even know what it is, unfortunately.
Gads that was a curve ball from shorty chopped used in battle L1A1 SAS 'snub nose' SLR - Rare - Wharton Militaria to the Canadian flag this is what I like about this place obtuse angles of discussion Brilliant......:thup:
Ignorant F*CK. Well done Brian. I likely wouldn't have been as polite as you undoubtedly were though. The very idea of using a flag for a table cover in the first place...Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian Dick
Well, we weren't getting anywhere with that anyway...Quote:
Originally Posted by CINDERS
I've known him for many years and he didn't have a clue what it was. I whipped out a $50 bill, informed him that it was the REAL Canadian flag and TOLD him he was selling it to me. Not so politely I reckon. I was tickled to get it though as they certainly aren't common in this part of the world or anywhere else for that matter. When I got back to Edgefield, I took it to a dry cleaners and it cleaned up really nicely. I've displayed it with my M38 CDN a time or two at vehicle displays.
My point is, it was a flag and obviously so. Well done and well displayed I should think. Closest I have is regimental flag, Ontario flag and UN flag...Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian Dick
I am joining this party late but the loudest noise I ever subjected myself to was the loader/#2 on a GPMG (Canadian Forces also). To be able to handle the belt you were forward of the gunner and your right ear was right beside the great big steel breech block ramming back and forth along with 7.62 ammo going off in full auto. 25 round bursts seemed to take forever and a 220 round belt was about all I could take...Quote:
Originally Posted by Sentryduty
While I am here, I will drop this out also: I have 3 commercial M14 clones, all of which came with the standard 22 inch barrel. I had 2 of them cut down to 18.5 inches and the shorties function perfectly fine even with my slightly reduced power handloads. Next time at the range I will see if the remaining full length rifle throws brass any further than the short barrel guns, but I don't think so. The only difference is a slight muzzle velocity decrease with the short barrel.
I know this is a little bit like apples and oranges but both rifles are gas piston operated and I don't see any reason why a C1A1 or L1A1 would not function perfectly fine with a short barrel, especially with the adjustable gas regulator.