Stokes Kirk and Sedgley Krags

Gents,

Here in Philly, near the site of the old Stokes Kirk and Sedgley Krag works one comes across old modified Krag rifles quite often. Some are definitely from these two firms, but some seem of a common pattern, but the origin remains a mystery. I am wondering is there a reference work that goes into these modified Krags in depth? I have a copy of the 1918 Stokes Kirk catalog and of course Brophy's 1980 Krag book, which is pretty much the only written references I know of that discuss these rifles in depth. Are there any others more updated references that deal specifically with the modified school Krags, cut down Krags and perhaps DCM variation carbines?

I believe the Stokes Kirk catalogs pretty much show that company's offerings. They seem to have stuck to improvised carbines using cut-down rifles and surplus parts. A lot of the Stokes Kirk guns will sport a 'banded front-sight' of their manufacture.

Sedgley is a bit trickier. Their company produced some high quality Krag and '03 Springfield sporting rifles with beautiful metal work and classic stocks.

Sedgley also turned out some BUDGET Krag 'Deer' rifles, using well worn, repaired & reworked surplus military parts.

I believe, Sedgley normally marked their work with an 'S' inside a Circle.

I have, what I call, a "Poor Boy" .30-40 Krag Sedgley hunting rifle. The barrel is a recycled .30-03 U.S. Springfield barrel made in 1905. The Krag receiver is stamped with a 'Circled S'. The cut-down rifle stock is thinned and much patched! A Marbles' #20S-KR receiver sight and Lyman banded front-sight were installed. It is UGLY, but, shoots & functions well.

Attachment 77841Attachment 77844

More Stokes Kirk pages:

Attachment 77848Attachment 77847

My 'Poor Boy' Sedgley Krag:

Attachment 77849Attachment 77850Attachment 77851Attachment 77852

I have a Sedgely school short rifle based on a 1894 dated 1892 pattern Krag rifle. Very nicely done. It and my 1898 rifle that seems to be assembled with a mix of old and new parts is why I am interested in these rifles. There does not seem to be much written on them as far as classification of the types, when made, etc.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by butlersrangers

'Poor Boy'

---

Interesting way they rotated the barrel (and re cut the chamber I would think)...was that a rod bayonet '03 barrel repurposed? Rechambered to 30-40?

I read post 2 and see that's exactly what it is...

It would certainly be a sweet deer rifle too.

'BAR' - That 1905 ('03) barrel has a near mint bore. It could have been in .30-03, then .30-06, and then in .30-40. It accepts Factory Ammo, but, has the tightest chamber of any of my Krags. With shortening at the breech, the indexed barrel ended up "upside-down". It shoots well.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by butlersrangers

That 1905 ('03) barrel has a near mint bore.

---

It certainly would be. That's why it was chosen, could have been a take off or surplus for the obvious reasons. At the time an excellent choice. I'll bet it does shoot. Make me want one again for just shooting purpose, mine are all gone. Just brass and dies left now.

'Frederick303' - IMHO, The Krags of Sedgley, Stokes Kirk, and Bannerman, were economy, utilitarian arms, assembled from assorted surplus parts during the Depression. They 'made-do' with available U.S. Military parts and some commercial parts to make inexpensive rifles.

Many Gun-Smiths (professional and amateur) did this. Sedgley, Stokes Kirk, and Bannerman just did it on a more extensive basis.

I don't think these arms fall into strict 'Types', (like official military models do). They were improvised, usually following carbine styling, made in limited numbers, using surplus/sold-off military parts. The stocks were often thinned-down and hand-guards were discarded to reduce weight.

Like yourself, I find these 'Hunting Krags' to be an interesting & collectable sub-species.

Leroy Rice of Elyria, Ohio, made sheet-metal 'peep' sights and other accessories for 'home gun-smiths'. A lot of his products are present on altered Krag rifles.

I recently bought a 1949 'Mailing' of his products:

Butlersranger

I have seen a Krag with that piece to cover the threaded barrels shown in the Rice ad. I had no idea that was a part that one could buy, I assumed the man who sported the rifle fabricated it.

I am kind of fond of Krags, though I have only 2. Neither has any family history, but as close as I could come to the arms described by family members. Unlike many of the other family heirloom arms both Krags that were owned in that era were lost, the other was sold sometime between 1950 and 1970 by my grandfather, it spent WWII wrapped in a oil cloth hidden underneath that family home along with a 1934 Winchester model 12, which I do have.


My personal interest is more in the short "school carbines" with 22 inch barrels based on the 1896 carbine. The Sedgley I have is very nicely carried out, but on a 1894 dated action, about 16,500 digits from where I want the serial number to be (37,xxx).

It all comes down to a Krag 1896 carbine/short rifle configuration that was mounted in a short stock that was in the family from 1944/45 on. It belonged to my grandfathers brother, or at least it was at his house when he died in 1944 and the household was broken up. It has stood in the corner of the study for years prior and my gun crazy uncle wanted it, it was the specific item he asked for. My mom was with her mother when they went up to break down the household and she made sure it was brought back down to PA (like a good Swiss Mädchen would ). In any case in May of 1945 she got to fire that Krag for the first and last time at the tender age of 12. I suppose the experience of firing a 220 grain full metal patched load though the rather worn 22 inch bore was sufficient to dissuade my mother from every firing a high power rifle again, she left that to the men folk. My uncle when asked about it recalled it being an old 10 gauge at the farm, but I believe his memory is a wee bit faulty on that, as my mom could described the bolt action quite well and was sufficiently wise as to avoid any such brother trick.

Eventually it was converted into a fine sporter by Griffin and Howe of New York city by my uncle in the late 1950s, because the bore was rusted out. I have the serial number but not the gun, it belongs to a cousin (his son) who inherited it. A fine sporter it is and where it properly belongs, as he inherited the gun bug from his father.

Story is it was one of a set of carbines that were sold, in shortened rifle stocks, to a new York Guard organization and used by some sort of coastal artillery unit my fathers brother was in during 1918. I have a nifty picture of that man, alas without any rifle. He was supposed to have been able to buy it after service. SRS seemed to confined the story, as a bunch of carbines near the serial number owned by my cousin were in that range and shown as being sold to a state cavalry unit in 1909. An inquiry to the Albany state military museum verified the rifles were sold to the cavalry unit not in carbine stocks, but configured as short rifles (for what reason I know not).

However later research seemed to precede that possibility though the carbine in that purchase block in the Albany collection is supposed to be in a short rifle stock. My guess is it was one of the school type carbines, brought into service for state side artillery arm duty, though I will never really know unless I make the trip to Albany and try to track down how these carbines ended up in short rifle stocks.

In any case in keeping my eyes open for a 1896 carbines in a rifle stock near 37,500 serial number I have seen a lot of reworked Krag carbines of one type or another and find them to be very interesting arms, though everyone and their cousin wants to tell me they are constabulary arms. Seems like it would be an interesting research project for the right chap.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Frederick303

everyone and their cousin wants to tell me they are constabulary arms

---

Nope, just school guns...

Attachment 77887 #21115 this one I posted a while back and seemed curious enough to me that I thought I would share again. It is from the Philadelphia area and as far as I know was created in someones workshop. What is particularly interesting is that the fore-stock has been shortened enough to permit the installation of a bayonet correctly but the muzzle has not been turned down to accept such and a 03 sight band fitted vs the previously described apparatus or markings from aftermarket companies. I had seen another like it at a show and should have bought it. This one doesn't fit the majority or any of descriptions that I see written but doesn't seem to be a one off example. The barrel is not carbine length, there is a C that has been added to the sight ears and shoots to point of aim at 100yds with the 200 yd graduation with later sights. I thought about restoring it to a semi original configuration until I seen the other, to good to change though I'm gonna leave it alone and just enjoy it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Doco overboard

I thought about restoring it

---

As you point out it shoots like a dream, they all do. I'd leave it too.

IIRC - Some Krag rifles had their barrels shortened to 24" and forearms shortened, by commercial firms. This was done to approximate the length of a 1903 Springfield for various Drill Teams and Honor Guards. I imagine a lot of these unofficial Krags were altered to take a bayonet. I've seen some, such rifles, chrome-plated. A 1903 Springfield banded front-sight (actually the 1905 sight) is common. This 'banded' sight requires that the muzzle area be reduced in diameter.

Mallory, (The Krag Rifle Story, 2nd edition, page 123), mentions: "... Thirty five Model 1898 Krag rifles were cut to 24" barrel length by Rock Island Arsenal in 1929 on order of the Almas Temple of Washington, D.C. ..." (Mallory doesn't mention the front-sight type or if the muzzles were 'turned' to reduce diameter).

The first Stokes Kirk catalog page, I posted, shows a shortened rifle similar to a 'school rifle'. The text says it is fitted with the Stokes Kirk made banded front sight.

Officially Altered Krag carbines:

Mallory (KRS, page 118) explains that "Philippine Constabulary Rifle" is a term coined by Collectors. The official nomenclature was "U. S. Magazine Carbine, caliber .30, model of 1899, altered for knife bayonet and gun sling". (Mallory also reports at least 39 Model 1898 carbines and a few Model 1896 carbines being found in this configuration).

These officially made arms were carbine barreled/receivers put in shortened rifle stocks. They have regular Krag carbine sights (front and rear). The front barrel-band was stretched to fit the larger barrel diameter at the 'new location'. The carbine barrel muzzle was 'stepped' to accept a standard Krag bayonet. The altered rifle stock has its butt swivel and a rifle rear barrel-band with swivel. The forearm tip has its exposed 'lightening-channel' expertly filled.

These carbine alterations were done from 1906 to 1915, for the Philippine Constabulary and private military schools, academies, and colleges. Per Mallory: 4,074 carbines were altered at Springfield, 4,980 at Manila, and 613 at Rock Island. (Mallory makes no mention of Benicia Arsenal involvement).

Is Mallory the best reference book out there for this? The sticker shock makes me ask if it really has all that much more info than Brophy?

The school-pattern Sedgely I have, does not have the banded front sight, rather a Krag front sight was grafted onto the front of the barrel. The rear sight is a 1902 rifle pattern.

I had a Stokes with a front band hunting carbine, but sold it to a fellow who wanted a representative piece cheap. Certainly the handiwork on the Kirk carbine was much less impressive.

IMHO - Brophy's book does a very nice job of covering the Philippine Constabulary (altered) carbines. He also respectfully devotes a whole chapter to Bannerman and Stokes Kirk products with careful explanations.

I doubt there is a perfect gun book. However, Brophy and Mallory, both did epic works on the Krag, that nicely complement each other. The two works contain some different material, so it is nice to have access to both.

With Mallory's, "The Krag Rifle Story", I greatly prefer the 2nd edition. (Note - Not '2nd Printing', which is just a reprinting of the 1st edition). The 2nd edition was improved, expanded, and has some SRS data.

(p.s. - The Springfield produced 'Constabulary' or 'School' altered carbines will likely have a "J.F.C." stock inspector cartouche. These were not official U.S. Service arms, but, purchased by the Constabulary and private military schools. IIRC - They were fitted for the Model 1905 Springfield bayonet, but, were probably mainly utilized with the shorter Krag bayonet).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by butlersrangers

They were fitted for the Model 1905 Springfield bayonet, but, were probably mainly utilized with the shorter Krag bayonet).

---

Matter of fact, didn't the schools keep the Krag bayonet well into the newer rifles because they fit and were already polished to the bright...?

The Krag front barrel-band, as altered at Springfield Armory for the 'Constabulary' and 'School' carbines (1906-1915), will allow the use of the model 1905 Springfield bayonet.

I am guessing, that because they were available & cheap as surplus, probably more practical, and looked good, the Krag bayonet was naturally used by Schools.

IIRC - The Philippine Constabulary opted to use the Krag bayonet and are invariably shown with them in photographs.

(Here is a photo of a suspicious, but, neat sign, that was 'For-Sale' in the Philippines. I saw it listed on ebay, a couple of years ago):

Attachment 77922

Sedgley employees would go to the Philadelphia Navy Yard and buy surplus parts from the Surplus Sales Office. They would buy low number receivers and heat them on a burner. They sold as cheap hunting rifles. They also hand made nice rifles for customers using customer parts. I recall (?) they had bought the Avis '03 rifling tooling and made very good '03 barrels for over 20 years. Interesting little shop.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Calif-Steve

They would buy low number receivers and heat them on a burner.

---

As in heat treat them? Or re-heat treat as the case may be?

These Leroy Rice catalog pictures disappeared from earlier posting:

Attachment 78027Attachment 78028Attachment 78029Attachment 78030Attachment 78031

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by butlersrangers

pictures disappeared from earlier posting

---

Sorry about that ... :(

After our major server upgrade and site move, we experienced some issues in the last few days with images and attaching them to posts ...

Should be all fixed now... :thup:

Regards,
Doug

Hah found my notes on the old family Krag which I had done back in 2005. Got the serial number right but.......


I got half the other details wrong. I find it interesting that in older age often times one can no longer depend on one's memory for fine details more than a decade old.

Segdley would re-heat the low number receivers on a burner unit. It very would soften the steel. If they were too soft they would not take a barrel correctly, hence the infrequent barrel with two extractor cuts. Simply flip the barrel over and mill another extractor cut. But, do realize when a high number '03 or nice 98 Mauser would walk in they received first class treatment. Of course, the customer needed cash, but the end result was top notch work.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Calif-Steve

hence the infrequent barrel with two extractor cuts

---

Good info, something that would be unknown up here if found.