NZ contact L2A1

Evening all,

I managed to locate and buy the old spec deac ex NZ contract L2A1 that eluded me a few weeks back.

Pleased as a dog with two appendages really, it's a very rare beast here in the UK indeed. She needs a bit of tidying up, but she's got full matching numbers and it's all there.

In fact during my years of collecting all things inch pattern here, I have never seen, nor heard of any examples sold or avalable for sale.

The only examples encountered are Malay or Singapore contract, or on occasion, mix and match rifles built up from parts.

The only other examples of the Australian or NZ service spec L2A1's I have seen are the live examples at Warmenster.

Anyone know of any others in the UK, there must be some?

This example fills a gap in my collection and sits alongside my deactivated ex Malay contract UK (pre 88 ban) civvy example.

Pics when I get a chance gents.

Cheers John.

Attached is a picture of my live NZ L2A1 (now since sold when I reduced the size of my collection). A very small number were released to NZ collectors by the NZ Army Museum via commercial arms auctions, and the funds were used for the museum operating budget.

Are the long straight mags NZ or Canadian? I didn't think anyone but us did that. I liked the slightly curved mags better. These didn't always work well, they had a flat spring instead of a wire. Long time since I carried one of those...with the bipod held up with a hose clamp to keep it secure.

The NZ L2A1's were all made by Lithgow. All Lithgow L2A1 used the straight 30 round magazines. The curved magazines were for the L4 Bren gun, although they were fully interchangeable with the L1 & L2A1's. NZ purchased a total of 375 L2A1's from Lithgow (Army 325, Navy 50), the bulk of which were obtained in 1962.

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Originally Posted by Woodsy

The curved magazines were for the L4 Bren gun, although they were fully interchangeable with the L1 & L2A1's.

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That's right...I had a couple from BATUS that I used for some time before dealing them away for far more valuable cockarockca...that I eventually dealt away too.

Bit of a grainy pic of my B/in law with his L 2A1 on his Asian holiday (not) around about 1970 ~ '71
(I had mis-designated the weapon having the numerals ar*se about this was corrected by forumers earlier on) :cheers:

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Originally Posted by browningautorifle

Are the long straight mags NZ or Canadian? I didn't think anyone but us did that. I liked the slightly curved mags better. These didn't always work well, they had a flat spring instead of a wire. Long time since I carried one of those...with the bipod held up with a hose clamp to keep it secure.

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Hi Jim, the unique gas blocks, straight magazines and bipods were made by Canadian Arsenals and shipped to Lithgow.

Kev has brought me up to speed on the nitty gritty of the L2, it seems that almost the entire inventory was exported to the UK post service.

From there, some shipped back to NZ and some shipped to the US (I would guess Europe too).

Now it seems (going by the ex NZ L1A1's that came this way) they were all Birmingham proofed before dissipating to the four winds, my L2 wasn't, so I wonder if it couldn't be proofed for some reason and was chopped.

My example was deactivated by the well known dealer Ryton Arms back in 1995 according to the documentation. I might enquire if they would be prepared to divulge how many they had, I can but ask.

I would love to see a breakdown of were they all dissapered too. Like I say, I have never seen another one here.

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Originally Posted by Woodsy

Attached is a picture of my live NZ L2A1 (now since sold when I reduced the size of my collection). A very small number were released to NZ collectors by the NZ Army Museum via commercial arms auctions, and the funds were used for the museum operating budget.

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Very nice indeed, were you allowed to let her "sing" or did she have to stay semi or not be fired?

Here's a very quick (and very poor) phone picture of mine, taken last night, better pics when I have a chance. she came with the correct Lithgow pull through and oil bottle, plus a long Australian 37 pattern type sling, L2A1 specific perhaps?

Cheers Cinders, great picture mate..

Are you sure about the straight 30rd magazines only being produced in Canada? I'd be surprised at that as the new ones all seemed to be in the standard Aust Ordnance type NSN's and wrapping. And Oz were already producing zillions of the standard mags...... The reason Australia didn't produce the curved magazine was, as I understand it and told to me while in Oz, was that the RSAF held the IPR on all things Bren INCLUDING those for the UK designed curved 30 round magazine. That's why Oz produced something similar..... but! Simply in order to by-pass the formalities. There was a fair bit of this underhand (but clever.....) dealing when it came to the L4 Bren of course. A good example of how NOT to treat your allies I say! Maybe RSAF should have acted more like Sterling and the F1 magazine saga. I rarely saw an L2 in Malaya with Aust, NZ, Gurkha or Malayan Infantry (although there were a couple with the Aust and NZArtillery somewhere). It all seemed to be Mk3 Brens and L4's. Maybe that was a strategic move - above my pay grade.

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Originally Posted by Peter Laidler

Are you sure about the straight 30rd magazines only being produced in Canada

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Morning Peter,

No, not 100% sure, but I think that's the case, can anyone confirm?

I indented for an L2 bipod for some obscure reason while I was in NZ and it eventually came in and that was definately Canadian as were some of the new gas block parts that came in at the same time.

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Originally Posted by mrclark303

, the unique gas blocks, straight magazines and bipods were made by Canadian Arsenals and shipped to Lithgow.

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That makes more sense then...

Someone remind me but........ Am I correct in that I seem to recall that our L2's had screw-on replacement foresight protector ears? At unit and Field level we used to replace the (common.....) broken L1 protector ears with square section spring washers welded on as a temporary fix. Same as No5's. Same old story.... and bayonet crosspieces. They bend or get damaged sliding about in the back of the vehicles so someone with the pliers tries to straighten it out and SNAP!

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Originally Posted by Peter Laidler

Someone remind me but........ Am I correct in that I seem to recall that our L2's had screw-on replacement foresight protector ears?

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That's it Peter, what a good idea that seems too. I think the later C1A1 production used the same system.

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Originally Posted by mrclark303

Very nice indeed, were you allowed to let her "sing" or did she have to stay semi or not be fired?

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NZ law allows licensed collectors to own live MG's but not shoot them (except for blanks at an organised 'theatrical event'). As a licensed gunsmith I am permitted to fire MG's with ball ammo for 'test & evaluation' to ensure they are safe and 'fit for purpose' as required by NZ consumer protection legislation. I addition, I also do pre-deployment weapons training courses for the NZ Army, covering foreign and other 'non-issue' MG's.

Frankly, I do not think much of the L2A1 as a light machine gun. The body is not sufficiently robust to withstand full-auto fire without developing problems. After their initial issue to the NZ Infantry in Vietnam they were soon relegated to second line units as defensive weapons (eg. Artillery). The L4 Bren was much preferred, although the M60 was issued to NZ Forces in Vietnam only (the M60 was never adopted by NZ except as door guns for the RNZAF). The Vietnam issue was only to retain compatability with Aussie and US troops.

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Originally Posted by Peter Laidler

screw-on replacement foresight protector ears

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Originally Posted by mrclark303

I think the later C1A1 production used the same system.

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For us at least, these were the 8L series that had those screw mounted sight protectors. Also an earlier one could be converted after one protector was broken off...

Don't ask me how I remember some of this irrelevant stuff - like the easy fix replacent gas block ears.........

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Originally Posted by mrclark303

Morning Peter,

No, not 100% sure, but I think that's the case, can anyone confirm?

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According to Skennerton ('SLR, Australia's FN FAL') the Canadians only supplied the rear sights and gas blocks, everything else was Aussie manufacture. Lithgow made 9,557 L2A1's and 30 rd magazines were issued in converted Bren mag boxes at the rate of 10 per gun (plus replacements as required) so it makes sense to tool up to make such a large number of magazines.

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Originally Posted by Woodsy

Lithgow made 9,557 L2A1's and 30 rd magazines

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Do we have any pics of the markings? I'm guessing they are marked like the UK did theirs?

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Originally Posted by browningautorifle

Do we have any pics of the markings? I'm guessing they are marked like the UK did theirs?

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Here's the markings on my Malay contract example Jim, with regard to the magazines, there is no information on them whatsoever. I have two straight 30rd mags, both identical.

You can clearly see the pin stop hole, pinned at one time to prevent full auto operation (that and the longer L1A1 trigger plunger). A reminder of a time when common sense was applied to firearms legislation in the UK, a time sadly now long gone!

Attachment 78200Attachment 78201Attachment 78202

The 'stop in hole' you mention. Is this the little hole just ahead of the change lever radius (photo 1)? I don't remember this on our L2's although I only saw and fired a few. Is this a commercial afterthought? As Woody says in thread 17, it was really a heavy rifle as opposed to an LMG.

I do remember on our 1st class course in Singapore, the Australians and NZers always referred to the 'safety sear' as the 'automatic sear' which it effectively was. Thereafter, and in our exams it was always the auto-sear!

Thanks for that info Woodsy, I have never had the pleasure of shooting an L2, but it is somewhat awkward, unlike most other areas of the inch pattern Fal, it really doesn't come over as particularly well thought out, bit of an evolutionary dead end if you will.

I guess the "all things to all men" temptation was too strong at the time, a bit like the similarly poorly thought out British L86A1/2. At least we in the UK had the good sense to stick with the Bren at the time.

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Originally Posted by Peter Laidler

The 'stop in hole' you mention. Is this the little hole just ahead of the change lever radius (photo 1)? I don't remember this on our L2's although I only saw and fired a few. Is this a commercial afterthought? As Woody says in thread 17, it was really a heavy rifle as opposed to an LMG.

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Yep, a UK pre 1988 semi auto ban civilian modification Peter, stop pin added and longer trigger plunger. I am surprised they didn't just replace the L2A1 selective fire safety with an L1A1 example.

I guess this was the cheapest route to make it a UK legal Semi automatic at the time.

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Originally Posted by Peter Laidler

it was really a heavy rifle

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Absolutely agree...that's why I applied the hose clamp. That selector is a carefully manicured two position model. Just a bit of grinding done and the shaft welded in. Are there any markings on the long straight mags? Or do they resemble Canadian mags with no markings at all?

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Originally Posted by browningautorifle

Absolutely agree...that's why I applied the hose clamp. That selector is a carefully manicured two position model. Just a bit of grinding done and the shaft welded in. Are there any markings on the long straight mags? Or do they resemble Canadian mags with no markings at all?

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Hi Jim, talk about hidden in plain sight! You are quite right, It had not occurred to me to check the selector, no second indent..

So, a more thorough semi auto build than I thought, to be honest I never carried out an automatic function check following the cosmetic rebuild.

Just checked the ex NZ L2, its the correct L2 type.

No markings of any kind on the magazine shell Jim.

Our FA selector has a shorter head and the top end is about round like a dime. The selector would rotate all the way round and stop against the Trigger axis pin. Guess these did too. We didn't have any stop pins, the top end of the selector body stopped against the upper receiver. Our SA selector didn't have the under cut for the trigger axis pin either I think, just the FA did.

The adjusted example rotates round (almost) to the full auto position, but it doesn't have the cutout to ride over the trigger access pin and locate in the TMH "A" indent.

It's become so engrained over the years to dry fire firearms as little as possible, I rarely work the actions of my deactivated collection .. I know, doesn't make any sense, after all what damage could it cause on a deac!

Had I done a full functionality check after I reassembled the refurbished Malay L2, then it would have been bleeding obvious!

Always had a love affair with the aussie L2A1, most of my MG Trophies were won with it.
1st round hits on figure targets from 600m, lighter than the Bren and just an all round great weapon for the Machine Gun Rundowns.
Used to really pee the Line Battallions teams off to be beat by RAEME Wallers at their own game.

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Originally Posted by muffett.2008

beat by RAEME Wallers

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A hatbadge doesn't denote the best shots. The queen's medal does. We used to see some of the finest shots come from air force or navy and same with the drill competition teams... A friend of mine was a armorer and he shot like ringin' a bell. Just means the others have to work harder and not rest on their laurels...

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Originally Posted by browningautorifle

Also an earlier one could be converted after one protector was broken off...

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THANK YOU! I'd been wondering about that...looks like my C1A1 repro is authentic after all!

I saw a few through time that had done. Not common but at least I did see them firsthand. At a distance of course we thought them to be an 8L.

Enbloc, if the late Pat Jones built your C1A1 repro, it'll be as authentic as it gets. He was a friend and associate. He got a handful of the stamped front sight guards from me along with quite a few other C1/C1A1 parts back when I had the stuff in quantity. I was going to have him engrave my Entreprise Arms receiver on the left side with C1A1 markings but it never happened. Brian

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I remember seeing racks full of 8L OPP rifles at CS Military and wishing I could bring some back with me. I'd guess many of them wound up as deacts.

I have a pair of consecutive numbered OPP s Lever Arms brought in a lot of the L2A1s into Canada. Some
had the compensators on them. Many were changed out to the L1A1 flash hiders. The compensator was
supposed to keep the gun from twisting in FA was the story. I have some somewhere. All of these guns
were mint. The kit and 30 round magazines were all new.

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Originally Posted by Brian Dick

Enbloc, if the late Pat Jones built your C1A1 repro, it'll be as authentic as it gets. He was a friend and associate. He got a handful of the stamped front sight guards from me along with quite a few other C1/C1A1 parts back when I had the stuff in quantity. I was going to have him engrave my Entreprise Arms receiver on the left side with C1A1 markings but it never happened. Brian

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Mine was built by RDO Specialties. The owner was a good friend of Pat Jones...ironically, I was the one that broke the news to him of Pat's passing. It came with reproduction sight ears and top cover; I replaced them with real ones when I got a set out of Canada.

Some time ago I was told that one of the big dealers in Canada was still sitting on a bunch of ex-OPP C1A1s, that they had gotten in from Britain right before they became "prohibited" items.

From everything I have heard about Pat I would love to have met him. At least he has left a superb body of work behind him.

A friend in the States has one of Pats builds, it's his favourite rifle, lovely work.

Yeah, I miss seeing Pat at Knob Creek.