SRS Search on M1903 please

A close friend purchased this rifle last month and we have been trying to get as much information on it as possible. The serial number is 1262948 and it is a M1903 style "T".
He says it has a shotgun butt plate, a 1917 Enfield band, a Rimkunas double set trigger, a reversed safety, a checkered stock, a BAR front sight base with a Winchester globe. It also had a leather sling marked 1918 G&K that is in great condition.
Any other information such as date of manufacture or location of sale etc would be greatly appreciated.
The fourth picture should have shown the adjustment screw for the trigger, in front of the trigger guard. Not sure what happened with that pic.

Thanks much,

Bruce

Nice looking rifle...

Thanks, and can it shoot. That trigger is way less than 1 pound but when you get use to it, it's like nothing I've ever shot before.

Not listed, but here are the closest:

1262946 05/28/42 DCM RIFLE SALES 1922-42
1262951NM 07/09/28 USMC R&P TEAM (SHIPPED FROM SA)

rembo46:

Your receiver fits in with a small group on NM rifles, but it is not listed in SRS. Have you pulled the rifle out of the stock? The reason I ask, since it has AO Niedner's stamp on the barrel, either it was barreled by him, or rebarreled by him. Niedner stamped a number on the bottom of the barrel , just in front of the receiver, and sometimes the initials of the barrel maker. This barrel looks like it could be a SA barrel, so there may not be that info there, but you oughta look. Does it have a proof P stamped on the underside of the pistol grip?

My guess, and I do have some experience with Type T rifles, since there are NO other Type T's in this serial number range, is that it is a T built by Niedner from DCM parts. No proof P on the pistol grip, and a Niedner number on the bottom of the barrel should confirm this, if that is the case.

My advice may be worth exactly what you paid for it.......................

HTH

rambo46:

Your bolt is a straight handled bolt, without looking it should date before 1918, this reinforces my thought that it is built from parts, and not an original T.

I really like that. lol Niedner didn't open up his shop in MI till after 1920, and I don't know that much about him this late.

If I was you, I would take this over to the doublegun forum. There are some really good Niedner Historians over there, and this kind of rilfe is what that forum is all about. I bet they could tell you a lot about it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by rambo46

and can it shoot. That trigger is way less than 1 pound

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You could always adjust it up a bit to your comfort. I'd love to wring it out a bit too. That's the kind of rifle one starts reloading and doing accuracy loads for...nice catch.

A very nice find. Possible it is an M2 stock? Not sure. It must run well, a true keeper.

Gentlemen,
Thank you for the information and your interest. The rifle has not yet been removed from its stock but will be this weekend, findings to follow. I wish each one of you men could get behind this rifle and experience how sweet it is. I know you wouldn't soon forget it.

rambo46:

If/when you pull the barreled receiver out of the stock, look for a set of star gauge numbers that would be hidden by the forend. They would consist of a letter over a set of (ususlly) 3 numbers, for example A 135. The Type T barrel did not have the star gauge mark on the muzzle. If you have these numbers, it is a USGI Type T barrel.

How long is it, most are 30".

As for a Type T being a sweet shooting rifle, I shot a 10 shot group at 100 yards with mine, the group was slightly larger than a dime, easily covered with a nickel. This was with 1920s metallurgy, technology, and machining methods, the stock 2 stage trigger,"slow" lock time, and a 70 year old scope! Not benchrest by any means, but not too shabby either.

I still have the target around here, somewhere........................

...Make sure you don't get the Star Gauge number mixed up with the steel lot code, which is usually on the side of the barrel.

If it is a commercial barrel (as the Niedner marking would indicate) would it have a star gauged number? I know that at one time, SA would star gauge SA M1903 barrels, but did not know that SA would star gauge commercial barrels. Just wondering.
I did not know that SA used commercial barrels on the Type "T".

As I mentioned, this weekend my friend and I will do an autopsy on that rifle and remove the stock. We have a gun show on Saturday, two hour ride but usually worth it, so Saturday evening or Sunday should reveal a few new bits of information.

Again, thanks much.

Cosine 26:

If this rifle has a commercial barrel, it would not have star gauge markings. If it is a USGI barrel from SA it should have them. That was one of my thoughts on how to identify the barrel and the AO Niedner stamp, USGI or commercial. These barrels were available from the DCM, as were barreled receivers. The owner of this rifle could have purchased one from the DCM, and sent it to Niedner for the rifle build, OR Niedner was certainly able to make a copy of a Type T barrel.

The presence or absence star gauge numbers should tell us...............

rambo46:

While you are looking at the rifle, please let us know the barrel length, from the muzzle to the bolt face.

HTH

We finally put aside some time and took the rifle apart. The barrel length is 26 inches and the only numbers on the underside of the barrel can be seen in the pictures. That trigger was so sensitive that it had to be adjusted on the heavier side, about 7 or 8 oz. now. One of the pictures shows a piece of wood inlaid in the barrel channel. Does anyone have an idea why ?
Most of the pictures in Col. Brophy's book show rifles with Woody triggers but there is a few nice pictures of a Rimkunas set trigger on p142.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by rambo46

piece of wood inlaid in the barrel channel

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Is it a harder wood? Possible moisture resistant so things don't move?

Jim,

Never thought of that, we'll have to take a closer look at the wood composition.

Thanks,

Bruce

Looks to me like the inset wood is being used to fill the space where the rear sight base was. Now a 1922 NRA Sporter stock, with a rear sight base, I'm gonna have to think about that one for a while.......................?

I think there were a few made that way.

More later.

Is there a Circle P proof mark on the pistol grip?

Your receiver dates from early 1924, and, IF we are to assume (I'm going to) that the sideways 4 and 91 is actually 491, and someone did an oops when they struck the 4, then Niedner's barrel number 491 would, according to Michael Petrov, date from early 1925. The 491 is in exactly the right place to be a Niedner barrel number. With no star gauge numbers, no USGI steel lot codes, and no proof P on the barrel, along with Niedner's barrel address, I think it is safe to assume Niedner made the barrel.

I have looked at some other Niedner barrel numbers, and as I recall, the font is the same.

Look closely at the bolt, check to see if there are any letters or numbers anywhere on the bolt. They could be on the bottom of the safety lug, or on the top of the bolt handle. With your bolt being a straight handled bolt, it is probably on the bottom of the safety lug. The straight handled bolt predates mid (? without looking) 1918, the swept handle was the later design, but many shooters preferred the early, casehardened bolts, referring to them as "slick as glass".

I have researched my resources and find the following information which may add to your knowledge of your rifle.
During the 1920's the US became very active in the International rifle matches and Congress appropriated special funds to further this interest. There were several experiments made to make the M1903 rifle competitive in this field. During this period exact records may or may not have been kept, so documented information may be difficult to identify. There are several people who have better source material that I , so I shall defer to them for more detailed or accurate info.
There is a good article in the U.S. Martial Arms Collector, issue No. 133 and additional information in Brophy's book. Your rifle has several characteristics which makes it similar if not one of the original International Match (IM) rifles. The article indicates that there were fifty IM rifle manufactured in various configurations having both Remington and Winchester barrels. There is also mention of one with a Pope barrel. Most of these rifles follow in the 125XXXX serial number range, but there is one illustrated, in the article, that falls in the 126XXXX range with a Remington barrel that falls within 3255 numbers of your rifle. Brophy indicates that during the development of the IM rifles, a number of NM M1903 were being manufactured. Your rifle has some of the characteristics of the IM Rifles but differs in others.
At one time the DCM offered some of the used Heavy Barrel rifles for sale and here are the cited references from the American Rifleman Magazine:
"Heavy Barreled Rifles Available
Further research shows that in the January 1927 issue of the AMERICAN RIFLEMAN magazine, in the DCM section the following ad appears:
“A few U. S. Rifles Model of 1923, heavy barrel International are available for sale through this office. The rifle costs $85.00 plus $1.34 packing charges. It has the service action, heavy barrel, 28 or 30 inches in length, as desired, style NRA pistol grip stock without grasping grooves, and fitted with Model 1922 butt plate. It is equipped with the Lyman 48C receiver sight, and the Winchester Globe front-sight. The rifles are not equipped with set triggers or palm rests. Such additional work will not be done at the Armory, but if desired by the purchaser, they must make arrangements to have the set-triggers and palm rests made by a concern making such equipment. This is the type of rifle used by the International Team."

At one time, the Armory sold off a few USED International “FREE” rifles. In those days, the corrosive primer ruled supreme, and HiVel #2, a nitroglycerine based powder was much more uniform than the available IMR powders of the day. It was much more erosive than the IMR powders. International rifles were fired much more than the average rifle for the course of fire was 120 rounds and shooters tended to practice every day if possible. Barrels wore out due to throat erosion fairly rapidly."
Your rifle may be one of those.
As to the "straight handled bolt". a limited "J5" bolts had were DHT . According to VI's chart, these will have "J5" stamped on the bottom of the safety lug.

Hope this helps.

Gentlemen,
Thank you for all this new information. I'll be meeting my friend at the rifle range this Monday and I'll bring him these findings. He'll have this rifle along with a beautiful 1888 Springfield 45/70, can't wait to shoot that one. It's going to be cold but as long as there isn't any wind it should be a good time.
I'll pass along anything that we find once we look her over again.

Bruce

Things are finally settling down around here. My good friend had some important personal things to take care of over the holidays so we're a little behind on what we enjoy doing. There were no other markings on his rifle and we both looked it over very closely in sunlight. Over this summer, he is going to try to gain some information from the previous owner and the owner before him etc. It's just too nice
a rifle not to have some history along with it.
When we went shooting last December 19th, we shot his 1888 Springfield. I hope to get a few pictures of that piece soon. That serial number is 516415 and if any of you gentlemen have information on this rifle it would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks much,

Bruce

SRS search help please for 1270518 SA with 7-30 barrel date

Nothing listed, unfortunately.

Rick,

Was that for the 1888 Springfield, serial #516415 ?

Bruce

That was for duchmate's request for a M1903.

Rick,

Could you please check if there is any info on that 1888 Springfield ?

Thanks much,

Bruce

I don't have listing for the Trapdoor. Sorry.