Here is just a few WW2 Weapons that were Used and Captured from the VC in Vietnam by U.S. Army Soldiers. The Link posted below has some Amazing Photos and Stories.
WWII German weapons during the Vietnam War
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Here is just a few WW2 Weapons that were Used and Captured from the VC in Vietnam by U.S. Army Soldiers. The Link posted below has some Amazing Photos and Stories.
WWII German weapons during the Vietnam War
Circa 1968-69 we were capturing a lot of WWII German stuff that we were sure had come from Eastern European Warsaw Pact countries - Bulgaria, Romania and the like. We also captured a fair bit of leftovers from the French as well as some weapons (STENs) supplied to Vietnamese resistance during WWII by SOE/OSS.
I would LOVE to get my mitts on that FG42......
I have a couple of berthiers, one being the very rare Indochinois variant, and a crude Chinese copy of a Gew 88 that were captured in Vietnam. My dad's unit even captured several k98s and MAS 36s according to his units after action reports. He even witnessed a mosin nagant 91/30 sniper with a homemade silencer being captured over there and who knows what all else was there. I've seen pics of VC with 1903s, p1917's, other us firearms stolen from the South Vietnamese, even crude VC made weapons.
Does anyone know what the U.S. army did with these captured weapons? Did they hand them over to the south Vietnamese or dispose of them by perhaps dumping at sea? My understanding was that the Soviets/Eastern Europeans supplied obsolete WW2 weapons etc to the NVA/VC so that they could use the excuse of "plausible deniability" which they couldn't so much if more modern weapons were supplied.
I think the ARVN had a big depot full of capture stuff. If I recall it correctly they sold off a huge pile 1969 or so. It went off to some European buyer.
Post 1 middle picture, about half way along there is what looks like a Mosin Nagant rifle sticking up slightly above the others in the line. Is it the sniper's version with the scope missing because it has the turned down bolt handle?
My understanding was that everything went to military intelligence first - or was supposed to - so that they could do their investigations and the like. After that, some was kept for historical purposes and then what wasn't wanted (or needed) went to the US MAAG. That meant some/all supposedly went to the SVN military, and some went to MAAG (MACV, 5SFG, etc.) programmes in country or - shall we say - 'places the US military wasn't'.
If only for a few bursts.Quote:
Originally Posted by boltaction
I believe a not insignificant amount of this gear originated (BAR's, M1 carbines etc) came from China who in turn captured large amounts of western materiel during their civil war and following that, in the Korean war. I once had the chance to sift through a number of NVA/VC small arms that used to be left out for display/supervised handling, at the Vietnamese Airforce museum in Hanoi.
This was 23 years ago now, so memory might be a little fuzzy, but some of the M1 Carbines in particular, seemed to have typical Chinese small arms inspection markings on them, so perhaps signs of Chinese arsenal refurbishment.
As a side note of interest, displayed just down the road, outside the Airforce headquarters and still in good overall condition was the wreck of a substantially complete US Navy F4 Phantom, ejector seat rods still extended, this was recovered in complete (but somewhat crumpled) condition after being shot down in 67, both crew members being captured unfortunately after ejecting.
Back then it was in very good order, clearly having been undercover and being stripped of internal avionics, what a prize this must have been for the Eastern block back then!
When I was noticed reaching for my camera it went down like a lead balloon and I was forcefully, but polity, advised it would not be a good idea !
I believe this same wreck, now in poor condition has moved over the road to the Army museum.
I wonder if this is one that even though the pilot determined was unflyable, had it's own computer take over and level out after ejection...? Then belly landed after...Quote:
Originally Posted by mrclark303
I looked up the report years ago and from what I can remember it was hit by AAA at low level, engines flamed out, Pilot and WSO ejected and the F4 pan caked into a rice paddy substantially complete.
Must have been quite the prize for their Soviet advisers!
The good old F4 was built like a tank!
And looked like it was burning diesel when it did a run over you...Quote:
Originally Posted by mrclark303
Ah, those J79's, mobile smoke stacks, but that cold war veteran is still earning it's keep across the world today.
One of the really poiniant things I kept seeing were the Helmets of the poor shot down and captured aircrew. I can't imagine what it must have been like drifting down on a parachute deep into routepack 6 with little to no hope of extraction.... terrifying.
Back to the subject at hand, I did see a few SMLE'S in official collections (WW1 British examples two), this surprised me to see such a familiar old friend so far from home.
That said, I guess Britain was responsible for French Indo China in the immediate aftermath of the war, that and the Japanese must have captured huge quantities of them in Burma and Singapore.
I think most of the small arms came out of Russia. We had Chinese SKS's and AK's ( my own SKS bringback was Chinese), but the WWII stuff was certainly Russian. Most looked beat and had bad bores. Corrosive ammo and no cleaning, ever. I never saw a single 8mm round, so no idea why all of the German Kar98's. They French left a pile behind, but no ammo. One VC ambush site I got to, had French 7.5mm cases all around. So somebody had a French rifle. Lots of small arms just everywhere.
I wonder, I know it was a long time ago now, but could they possibly have been ex Nationalist Chinese Mauser's, the Germans supplied large amounts of equipment to the Nationalist forces before Japan joined the Axis forces and the supply abruptly stopped!Quote:
Originally Posted by Calif-Steve
From what I saw during 1968-69 in particular the WWII German weapons were coming from Eastern Europe via the Soviet Union, China and down the HCM from North Vietnam. A lot of the ammunition we captured also came from Eastern Europe. There was also an abundance of Soviet and Chi-Com weapons at that time too. I also remember seeing a few weapons that I was told came from North Korea as well.
I'm not sure how abruptly Germany stopped supplying arms to Nationalist Forces in China after Japan joined the Axis powers? I did hear it suggested that Germany was surprisingly slow to stop supporting Nationalist Forces in China with arms etc after Japan joined the Axis powers and it took some effort by Japan to stop this support. How true this is I have no idea.
It would seem bizarre that there might have been a point in the war when the Allies and the Axis countries were both supplying the Nationalist Chinese!
A similar situation could/may/nearly or did happen with Finland because in the early part of the war we (U.K.) were allied to them but they switched their allegiance to Germany. There may have been a very brief period when we were both alien to Finland?
The Kar98's in RVN largely came from Russia. They had a pile after WWII and hung on to them. I never saw any ammo, either. The French also had many Kar98's but not the quantity we captured. Russia fueled the war with China shipping in lots of equipment as well. All of the AK's I saw were Chinese and my own SKS is Chinese. But the Russians were fueling the war.
It is politics at its best. Prior to WWII Russia was the big bad wolf, and the non-aggression pact with Germany and invasion of Poland definitely placed them on the Allied blacklist. The Finns, fighting the Russians, were viewed as heroic good guys. Then, when the tables turned and the Germans invaded Russia, Russia suddenly became allied with the West ("the enemy of my enemy is my friend") and the Finns, still fighting the Russians and now on side with Germany, became the bad guys. Then they switched again near the end of the war. I remember my Mom saying how confusing it was, growing up during the war in small town Saskatchewan; all those different European immigrants around and whether they were to be trusted or not switched frequently :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Flying10uk
One can see photos of Finnish soldiers carrying Boys antitank rifles, Mosin Nagants, and Rosses..........
Ed
The politics involved in these things, then (as now), have everything to do do with Geo Political, National strategic aims and very little to do with doing the "right thing"..
A very sad fact unfortunately.
You only have to see the living hell and sea of human misery that Syria has turned into, to see this is still very much a fact.
I use to work with a chap whose father was Polish and came to the U.K. in the early part of the war. This was partly to escape the Nazis and also he wanted to fly with the RAF in order to fight the Germans. When I was chatting to this work mate, on one occasion, about his father and Poland I was surprised when the chap turned to me and said that the place where his father came from is no longer part of Poland. Since the end of WW2 it has been part of Russia.
That was down to Winston Churchill if I recall correctly. I suppose to limit the size and hence power of a future Germany he proposed, that the Polish Western Border was moved 100miles west into German territory and the Polish Eastern Border was moved 100miles West ceding Polish territory to the Russians.Quote:
Originally Posted by Flying10uk
TomH
Ahhh...no. what occurred is Good old Winston Churchill sold the Poles down the river. In exchange fro the UK recognizing the Curzon line as being Poland's eastern border, England got Russia to agree that Greece would remain in the UK zone of influence.
One can understand this, except one of the reasons Poland went to war in 39 was the explicit guarantee by the UK that Poland border would not be negotiated away. If you look at the negotiations with Col. Beck, it was on this basis the Poles told Germany to pound sand. Churchill knew what he was doing when he traded the recognition of the Curzon line for Greece. The sad truth is Poland might have gotten a better deal by yielding west Prussia and Danzig.
In fairness to Churchill, since the Soviets occupied Poland there was not much the UK could do, they were bankrupt, and no one was in the mood to fight another war over Poland. So the Poles were screwed.
One mustn't forget the thousands of Prisoners of War who were in the hands of the Western Allies at the end of WW2 and who were sent back to the Soviet Union, to meet their fate.
It seems like the good majority of foreign weapons were either manufactured by Russia and China or supplied to the NVA/VC by the Russians and Chinese. Then there are the odd balls like the French firearms left over from the Indochina colony days, the arisakas left by the Japanese, US weapons stolen from ARVN encampments, and on occasion crude copies of other firearms made in country along with poorly made single shot rifles also made in country.