Vets and their M16's

I know we are lucky to have several veterans on this forum, and to start, God bless you and thank you for your service. For this thread, I'm interested in those who carried the early M16/M16A1's, that we base our beloved retro builds off of.

For those who carried them, I'm interested in hearing:

1. You're experiences with them as a combat weapon. Reliability, accuracy, etc.

2. What kind of personal touches did your weapon have, if any? I.E rack numbers, stickers, cleaning rod taped to stock, grenade launchers, scopes, etc.

3. What equipment were you issued for them?

4. Any tips or tricks when it comes to shooting?


I recently built an almost all USGI clone and have fallen in love with it. It's so lightweight and accurate, all other AR's stay home on range day.

Thanks again!

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Although my issue was at the time either a C1A1, C2A1 or SMG C1...I had occasion to have issued an M16A1. Once was in Australia for LWC training in Canungra (1977)and other times were Ft Wainwright AK in January '75. I also had one for a time here in Canada for an exchange in about '76. The experiences were all reasonable because I had cleaning time and no real threat. Ball ammo worked fine for us and the blank for exercise was passable... Ours had regular rack numbers painted on them and we were issued 30 rd mags only, although we'd find 20s in the area. We had bayonets and sometimes the belt mounted cleaning kits. Usually the butt cleaning kit was issued and the standard black sling.

My overseas trips were FN C1 only...

During college we used to draw Delaware NG weapons for use in ROTC FTXs and one time I drew a Hydromantic/GM M16A1, I seem to recall it was a 1968 rifle and still had the grey park/anodized metal finish. It was in pretty nice shape for a 1968 rifle, I doubt it had seen much use. It had a chrome chamber but not the bore, at least that is my recollection that I was told. That would have been in early January of 1983. I seem to recall, but am not sure that that rifle had the solid buttstock and that it was issued with the old bipod container with a cleaning kit in it, but no bipod. Those rifles did not have stock rack numbers but a small copper/brass circular tag (with a number) on the forward sling swivel when we got them. This was wired on and we carefully removed them and save them, to be put back on when the rifles were returned.

Prior to returning them they had to be absolutely spotless. That means you had to have everything sufficiently clean that none of the copious amounts of blank powder carbon was left, which was very difficult to do with the material we had in the cleaning kits. The cleaning kits that came in the bipod cases we had did not have the tooth brush or much of anything, I do not even recall a good chamber brush, I seem to recall we had to use old toothbrushes to clean that area and all we had to clean/lube was LSA and lighter fluid along with paper towels. We did have cleaning patches, which we cut to make the right size..

During Small Arms firing school in the late 1980s, I think it was 1989, the rifle I drew was an old XM16E1 that had been rebuilt at RIA in 1975 and was so marked on the front right hand side of the magazine well. It had a chrome chamber and bore, obviously a replacement. The finish on the upper and lower was some kind black paint, at least it looked like it. Very loose fit between upper and lower. Still shot expert on the old 300 M known distance course...not sure but it was the D and E targets at 200 and 300 yards/meters (forget which).

Never saw an open flashider or any kind of assist but the teardrop version. Never saw a chrome bolt carrier. Never saw any kind of charging handle but he one used today. All the rifles as they came to us had the full selector feature blanked off with a pot metal plate that went between the pistol grip and the lower receiver, to remove it you had to have a screwdriver. You could also snap it with a P38 can opener and then claim you had no idea how it got that way. None of the rifles were all that worn, none had the absolute lack of finish on raised surfaces that you see in various pictures of rifles that have been in the field for much time or basic training guns. Still it is my recollection that the rifles were pretty loose and had a fair amount of play between the upper and lowers.

My impression of the M16A1 was pretty good, but that said I had never fired any real gun prior other than open sighted 22 rifles and perhaps a shotgun. The peep sight took some getting used too, but I recall that on a moon-lite night the rear rail and front sight post could sort of be used as a alignment device, that is until you got into the woods. Not sure how effective in the real world as I never fired anything at night but blanks, but I would have supposed in good light you could be pretty sure of dumping your rounds on a man sized object at 50 yards. The blanks produced flash at night on full automatic and it occurred to me if you actually fired at night you would likely not have a long life in a real battle if the regular rounds produced that much flash.

The only real issue I recall was that in firing the trainfire course or alternative A at 25 meters you had to be really conscious of the non-firing hand position. Back then the qualification course was 40 rounds, all prone, half in foxhole and half prone unsupported. I think we got 9~10 rounds to zero the rifles, something like 2- 3 shot groups and one final 4 shot group. If you used sandbag support on the forward end of the forestock and then went to hand pressure back towards the rear of the handguards in the unsupported position, you would see a group shift. The sling would make things a wee bit worse (old M1 sling is what we had)

Never fired a shot in anger my entire life so no real practical knowledge.

Very interesting post I hope for lots of feedback.

I noticed your stock with the rack number. There used to be a lot of real nice condition ex National
Guard plastic sets for sale a few years ago. The sets I got were excellent condition. I got them
for my m16s, then got some more for spares. There also were the bipod in carry cases.
I don't know if they were issuing new m16a2 plastic sets or destroying the guns.

I had an TRW M14 in Basic Training at Fort Knox Ky, April 22, 1969. It had the brown fiberglass stock that made it easier to find when stacking arms. I was very unhappy to find that my rifle was about 1.5 lbs heavier than the wood stocked 14's. about a week before graduation. We fired one 20 rd. magazine in an M16 for familiarization fire. After Signal Corps fixed base communications training I was sent to an Island in the bay of Panama, guarding the entrance to the Panama Canal. We had M14s. Later the 14s were withdrawn (mid 1970) and we were issued brand new in the cardboard box GM HyrdoMatic M16A1s. The general feeling was that the hydros did not group as well as the Colts.

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Originally Posted by breakeyp

GM HyrdoMatic M16A1

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Kind of a hard one to find now...guess they used them completely up.

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Originally Posted by browningautorifle

Kind of a hard one to find now...guess they used them completely up.

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Local Sherriff sent a few back to the state along with three Winchester 1200 trench guns a few years back. I think the state provided some plastic pistols in return.
Ouch.

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Originally Posted by HOOKED ON HISTORY

Local Sherriff sent a few back to the state

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Yes, I did hear about the odd LEO that still had a couple or so sequestered...

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Originally Posted by browningautorifle

Kind of a hard one to find now...guess they used them completely up.

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Many were rebuilt to A2 status.

I understand that most of the m16 based "precision" SPR rifles have early XM and M16A1 lowers.

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Originally Posted by browningautorifle

Yes, I did hear about the odd LEO that still had a couple or so sequestered...

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The federal "aid to law enforcement" programs has resulted in distribution of various obsolescent equipment from armoured vehicles to rifles and machine guns.

Various early AR15 and XM16 variants have surfaced from the very first experimental and trials rifles, sometimes in original parts condition (buffers, charging handles ect).

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Originally Posted by Lee Enfield

Various early AR15 and XM16 variants have surfaced from the very first experimental and trials rifles, sometimes in original parts condition (buffers, charging handles ect).

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This too is illustrated in the past when early gas trap M1 rifles surfaced from armories for rebuild as far as the '60s. These time capsules should be exploited but likely never will be. As soon as they're stripped it's over.

There was a big rebuild program at Anniston in the late 80's and early 90's to upgrade the M16A1 to M16A2. My story is similar to Frederick's. I had my first ones issued in ROTC from the Florida National Guard at Stetson University in Deland in 1981. Yes, they were filthy and our "rent" was to clean them spotless before we turned them back in after FTX's. Our cadre were almost all former Vietnam vets and they were stringent. It never paid to be the first in line to turn in weapons! I was issued a GM M16A1 in basic training at Fort Benning in 1985. There was quite a menagerie issued in basic training including XM16E1 lowers in the mix. All had been rebuilt at least once, had the paint finish and a stamped on white DoD acceptance stamp on the front of the lower's magazine well. In the 325th Infantry, we had mostly Colt with a few GM's and H&R's in the mix. We also had the old M203 GL that we simply could not keep tight on the rifles when used in airborne ops. They were a royal pain in the ***. I'd guess the design has been changed substantially now. Funny what Frederick says about cleaning equipment. It was always scarce. When I became an armorer at Fort Bragg, I ordered the heck out of cleaning gear on the old microfysh system we had and cured that problem, at least in my company. I still have my original handy little GI pouch that I enhanced with the cleaning rod and other bits in my range bag to this day!

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Originally Posted by browningautorifle

) and other times were Ft Wainwright AK in January '75.

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Hi Jim,
I am assuming you were there for "Operation Jack Frost". Were you with PPCLI or the Para Regt? I was with Charlie Airborne 4/23rd INF.
Shortly after this I was reassigned to one of the leg units at Ft. Lewis that participated in OJF. Met the Bn. Commander and he was all bragging about their successful mission up there. I laughed and said "We kicked your butt,....Sir!" Fortunately, for me, he was reassigned the next month.

All our rifles were Colt XM16E1s from Vietnam and worn out. I swear some of them could shoot around corners.

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Originally Posted by BEAR

"Operation Jack Frost"

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I had forgotten that. I still have my file here though and yes, that was it. Charlie Airborne was the unit we attached to and I was embedded with a US rifle section, four of us and six of you...I was A Coy PPCLI. I've trained many, many times at Ft Lewis too...enough that I don't need a map there any more. (Well, maybe now...) Wish I'd looked closer at the stampings of those M16s we were issued...might have found something really scarce...

Speaking of something really scarce (kind of off topic), our Alaska armorer was a good friend and one evening he told to come to the arms room in the morning. So I went down the next day and he was as giddy as a school girl. He told me he had been checking the M1911 grips for chips and cracks so he could replace them. He then showed me a set of grips that had scratched into the backside "Sgt Rulio, Tunisia 1942". He said they needed to be replaced (wink, wink, nod, nod).
Some people have all the luck.

I still have a big long Collins Machete that I pilfered from our tent group up there...didn't know they'd become collectible.

What you meant to say Jim is that "You have long termed borrowed the Collins piece of kit." (The Australian way of getting gear.):thup:

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Originally Posted by CINDERS

"You have long termed borrowed the Collins piece of kit."

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Yes...it's sure been a long term loan though. 41 years near as I can reckon...

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Originally Posted by browningautorifle

Originally Posted by CINDERS


"You have long termed borrowed the Collins piece of kit."




Yes...it's sure been a long term loan though. 41 years near as I can reckon...














Regards, Jim

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Perhaps another way to view it? You saved a personal memento from the hands of a bureaucracy who only valued it as scrap.

We also had a 1911A1 made by Singer... but the difference between a long term borrow of grips and a long term borrow of a 1911A1 was a long term stay at Hotel Leavenworth.

I didn't figure you guys would miss the machete. Seemed I was right.

"Pilfered" is such an incriminating word. I prefer to believe that you simply liberated the machete from Ft. Wainwright to return it to Ft. Lewis but it got stuck somewhere in between.

Well, if someone involved deems it necessary to the TO&E for Ft Wainwright, and send them over to collect it...I'll do up a BBQ feed and hand it over before sending them off again. Maybe there'll be time for a couple stories...?

It is interesting to note that many vets I have known, including my father , while very honest men, did not think that extended to government property while on duty if such an act would not result in a soldier being put out.

best stated that all such "reallocations of underutilized resources" were viewed as "long term non-interest bearing loans".

Hi...my name is BEAR....I am also a reallocator of military resources.....I too, liberated a machete from my platoon's ahkio....and a shell deflector for left handed shooters.....oh yeah, and an early 20 round waffle magazine from the arms room....and I have WW2 e-tool I wuz issued. I've been a baaaaaad boy.

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Originally Posted by BEAR

ahkio

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There's a term I'd forgotten!! Haven't heard that since then... Are we far enough off topic yet? Neat thing is, Bear...we were probably standing within a few feet of each other then...at some point.

Sorry Garrett, didn't mean to hijack.

Neat thing is, Bear...we were probably standing within a few feet of each other then...at some point.

Very good possibility, Jim ..... I was the intelligent, good looking guy :madsmile:

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Originally Posted by BEAR

and a shell deflector for left handed shooters.....oh yeah, and an early 20 round waffle magazine from the arms room.

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I have been looking for both of those. Waffle mag for an early clone and the deflector for left handed reasons.

As my dad was demobbed from the Navy in '46 his station was being closed as well. The station had somehow drawn way above their TO&E the number of mechanics tool kits. The station commander had the gang break up the kits into piles of each type of tool and the tool boxes. Each man who was being discharged was given his papers and sent down the line of items starting with a tool box and then filling it with one of each tool as he left the base. It was a great way to start a home toolkit.

Bob

One of my m16 is XM16E1 and the other is FSI M16A1

Because it was early, I lucked out and had a signal corps MOS. I was a telephone lineman when drafted so....If Ma Bell had an a$$ I would have dropped down on my knees and kissed it. I went from the 5th Inf Div to Vietnam may 1966 up in IICorps. We all had full automatic M14s, mine was brand new in the box H&R.
There were almost no M16 around. The inf maneuver battalions in the 1st Cav, 25th, 101st and later 4th were the people who had the 16s. The 1st Div down south was still using the M14 as was the Marine Corps. The only place I saw M16s was in these Inf units. The units that deployed with 16s had no problems with the jamming situation because they had trained extensively with them before deploying (1st Cav). The M16s I saw were all forward assist weapons. ARVN and Korean units were still using WW2 weapons. I qualified Expert with the M14 and liked it very much. It was used very little as my duties were almost always convoys and babysitting expensive stuff up into Pleiku or AnKhe by air. Funny thing, I now own an AR and wish I had an M14.

I found this thread while doing research on the rifle I was issued in basic. I was not "into" guns back then so I know very little about the one I had. I would like to build something similar to it and I am trying to find out what model/brand/type it is. I know the photo is of pretty bad quality. It was a Polaroid which I scanned.

I went through basic training in August 1973 at Ft Leonard Wood (B-4-2). This photo was taken around that time. I had never fired a gun before then but hit 79 out of 80 targets during qualification. If anyone knows what version this M16 is, I would like to learn all I can about it.

Somewhere I have a photo of the M16 I was issued in Germany. If I can locate it, I'll add it to this thread.

Thanks!
Mike

Attachment 79670

I used quite an assortment of weapons after being drafted in 67. Basic training was with an M-14 with the selector switch removed. I still believe it was the finest weapon I used in the military. Next was a jam-o-matic M-16 in AIT at FT Polk. It was so unreliable that it was impossible for me to qualify with it so the DI faked my score to get me through. When I got in country they gave me a brand new A-1 it was better than the jam-o-matic but as soon as possible I got an M-79 and later an M-60. The 60 had some quirks mainly the the gas system piston but if you stayed on top of you were fine. WE didn't have time or the means to make any changes to anything except maybe losing the safety on the M-79 when you took it apart.

Looks like a standard M16A1.

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Originally Posted by BEAR

Hi...my name is BEAR....I am also a reallocator of military resources.....I too, liberated a machete from my platoon's ahkio....and a shell deflector for left handed shooters.....oh yeah, and an early 20 round waffle magazine from the arms room....and I have WW2 e-tool I wuz issued. I've been a baaaaaad boy.

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Wow I had no idea that others smuggled so much of their issue gear home though my dad's gear takes the cake. He volunteered to go to Vietnam in 1966 and ended up in the 1st Marine Division in the 7th Marines. He started off with the M14, which he loved, but when his unit converted over to the M16 my dad hid his M14 bayonet in his sea bag and thus he began a plan to bring home most of his stuff. By the end of his tour in January of 68 he smuggled home three sets of fatigues (one of which I still have), his ww2 e tool with cover, his back pack with poncho, his web belt complete with his canteen, two field dressing kits from 1944, and his prized mk 2 knife. By the end of it his only original gear he turned in was his helmet, boots, pistol, and mag pouches. Everything else he had scrounged up around the base and turned them in as his own. He also got home a VC flag as well as an sks in his sea bag. Luckily he was never checked for any contraband and I have them all displayed in my collection as he wore them in the field.

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Originally Posted by HOOKED ON HISTORY

Looks like a standard M16A1.

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I agree, looks to have a couple early features, like the straight taper slip ring.

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Originally Posted by mikea1022

I went through basic training in August 1973 at Ft Leonard Wood

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Welcome to the forum, you joined about 6 months before I did. Interesting seeing the different army pic from the same time.

Yep, it's a bog standard M16A1. It could be manufactured by Colt, H&R or Hydramatic Division of General Motors. I'm told Colt is going to produce a semi auto collector version of the M16A1 and XM177 but I'm not sure if they're available yet. You can build one if you want. All of the early parts are available as new production from places like Brownells and Nodak Spud. Check out their websites.

My Cousin sent a pair of fatigues home from Vietnam. Somehow the post office got involved and agents visited his mom and took them back and he got a tail chewing out of it.

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Originally Posted by HOOKED ON HISTORY

I have been looking for both of those. Waffle mag for an early clone and the deflector for left handed reasons.

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I bought the oroper deflector from Burns Surplus on I44 in Missouri. I thinkni posted the phone number in the thread i started in vintage gear.

Ok. First off, gear adrift is a gift. Secondly, there was only ever one thing stolen in the Army. The rest was a result of everyone trying to get their gear back!
One of my Sgts had a "warehouse". It was a secret wall locker that housed 10s of canteens hundreds of magazines and every other T/A50 you could imagine.
I entered the Army in 89. I trained 12b at Ft. Leonard Wood. My basic training rifle was an H&R M16A1. That old rifle shot true and NEVER let me down. I searched and i guess i never wrote the serial number down. The only things i have to remember that rifle by are 1 class A wall locker pic and burn scar on my right forearm (left handed shooter).
The new Colt A1 is selling at well over 2 grand and is not quite correct. I built an A1 from used parts and AR15sport.com. I used the DelTon 1-12" twist gov 20" chrome bore/chamber barrel. On my A2 camp perry rifle i used the DelTon 1-9" twist HBAR chrome bore/chamber 20"barrel. They are both excellent shooters.
Any of you guys with the retro bug, AR15.COM has a retro forum as well as a dedicated A2 forum. Those guys are totaly anal about this stuff!!.
I love to read everyones storys. You guys are why i enlisted!
Interestingly, the A2 was my love. But after finishing her i just had to build the A1. Once done, she is my all time fav. Kinda like your first kiss. You always remember her fondly.
Another side note. Even though i am a product of the M9, on my 45th birthday i gifted myself my 1st .45acp. Is is a Springfield Armory 1911A1 Mil Spec. After changing out the lawyer device mainspring housing for a real WWII one with lanyard loop, she is perfect. For some reason i feel like a true military pistol should have a lanyard loop. Not really a gun for a lefty, but i love her none the less!!!!!!

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Originally Posted by garrettbragg12

I know we are lucky to have several veterans on this forum, and to start, God bless you and thank you for your service. For this thread, I'm interested in those who carried the early M16/M16A1's, that we base our beloved retro builds off of.
For those who carried them, I'm interested in hearing:
1. You're experiences with them as a combat weapon. Reliability, accuracy, etc.
2. What kind of personal touches did your weapon have, if any? I.E rack numbers, stickers, cleaning rod taped to stock, grenade launchers, scopes, etc.
3. What equipment were you issued for them?
Thanks again!

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Well, I "sorta" carried an M16 in Viet Nam. Actually it was a CAR 15 (officially an XM177E2).
Never had a malfunction with it. Of course I had learned, and paid attention to, the proper cleaning procedures.
No personal touches except for an AK 47 mag reworked to be a 35 rd M16 mag. This is what was carried in the weapon with 20 rd mags for reloads. Learned this from the Navy guys working "Market time" down in the Delta.
Nothing, I scrounged what ever I wanted to go with it. Used a 2 qt canteen strap as a top mounted sling.
I currently have an AR15A2, CAR 15 (built on an early SP 1 lower with parts I sent home from RVN) and an AR 15.
Here are some photos. The 3 M14s are all chicom - An M1A type and 2 M14 select fire rifles. At the top is an FN/FAL select fire rifle. The AR15A2 is not in the photo.
Sarge
Attachment 82507

Always enjoy looking at your rifles Sarge...the first M14 is dressed exactly like the ones I saw the brow guard close up with on the USS Alamo in about 1978. They brought four and the BAR belts full of mags...plus...

So tell us about the AK mag reworked to fit an m16. Love to see pics of it.
Makes me wonder why they used a different mag to feed the 5.56 AKMs when according to Sarge here the 7.62 mags feed 5.56 fine.

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Originally Posted by MikieG

So tell us about the AK mag reworked to fit an m16. Love to see pics of it.
Makes me wonder why they used a different mag to feed the 5.56 AKMs when according to Sarge here the 7.62 mags feed 5.56 fine.

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+1 I too would like to know that secret!

Well that was in early 1970 and I never thought to bring the mag home because I never had any thought of owning an M16 or anything similar.
All I remember is I had to do some grinding on the top and I put an M16 mag follower in it. Gave me 35 or 36 rds of 556. As I said before I got the idea from the Navy guys as a guy I knew in the Mike Force had been on an operation with them and he brought back one of their mags and wouldn't let me have it so I had to make my own using his for a pattern.
IF we had of had the new 30 rd mags I wouldn't have bothered with it, but we didn't get them till later.
Sarge

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Originally Posted by Sarge

I had to do some grinding on the top and I put an M16 mag follower in it.

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We've talked about it here before, I wonder if someone has one to show?

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Originally Posted by Sarge

IF we had of had the new 30 rd mags I wouldn't have bothered

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Now I understand why it was done. I couldn't figure why on earth anyone would go to the trouble before.

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Originally Posted by browningautorifle

We've talked about it here before, I wonder if someone has one to show?

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Might make an interesting addition to a retro A-1. I would like to see/make one as well.

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Originally Posted by HOOKED ON HISTORY

Might make an interesting addition to a retro A-1.

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Or a carbine...?

Even better.

Never carried it in combat, but was issued an M16A1 in the Army 1974 to 1977. 1977 to 1979, I was inactive reserve, so I didn't have one. 1979 to 1981, I was in a USAF Reserve/AFNG Security Police unit, and was issued a GAU-5/A/A and (11.5" barrel) and a GAU-5/P 14.5" 1/12 pencil barrel. 1980s, I carried M1 Carbines and an AR180 as LEO trunk weapons, and in the 1990s, I had an XM177E2 for a trunk weapon. Since then, I have always had some form of AR15.

I could count the malfunctions I have had in all of them since 1974, on two hands, or maybe even one for that matter. Most of those were bad ammo or mags. I NEVER had to use a forward assist! That's my my "all Colt except stripped NDS 601 lower" SP1 carbine build has none!

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