"Folded up" British bayonet frogs.

There are some British bayonet frogs coming onto the milserps collector's market in what I like to call "folded up" state. I had assumed that this was simply a step taken out of conveniency in order to take up less space in storage. Recently it was suggested to me that the frogs were actually sometimes worn in the "folded up" state when in use with the British No4 Pig-sticker bayonet. If this is the case I don't see how the frog could be attached to the relatively wide British belt? This may seem like a fairly simplistic question to ask but it is one that I don't know the answer to. Many thanks for any information.

N.B. In this instance the frogs are blancoed blue indicating RAF issue although this is not really relevant to the question.

This is simply for storage and transport purposes. Made smaller. You can't do anything with it folded up. The bayonet doesn't fit, a belt...nothing.

That's what I thought, Jim, until I noticed a fellow collector, who will remain nameless, with a Pig Sticker displayed in the frog in the "folded up" state. The 2 frogs pictured in post 1, I purchased recently off eBay and both came "folded up". I then tried to figure out how to attache it to the standard British belt in the "folded up" state.

I don't think you'd get any belt, even a pants belt into it. I picked one up in Cyprus my second tour that was cast off battle damage. There'd been a man wounded and they cut off his gear and left it there. Took me the whole first tour to look at it and the second tour I went and got it. There had been a hold punched above the slot for the 1907 scabbard button and the frog was used just as was. This whole thing is a pipe dream from a dealer that simply doesn't know.

Maybe some units folded stuff up like that for kit and locker layouts. Like us rolling all our '37 pattern cross-straps and small pack straps up - and filling our pouches up with wood blocks to make them look square for kit layouts........... Why ever did we put up with all of this gumph?

I have both British and Italian frogs this way, the British are official and not for storage it was to make a shorter frog for the No4 bayonet. My Italian's are 1891 Carcano frogs folded to make a short frog for the M38 folding bayonets. The UK ones don't fit on the belt but on the 38 webbing, I believe.

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They are correct frogs for the No4, I believe the folded frog fits on strap on the webbing other than the belt. I have the same for the Italian M38 folding knife made by folding the 1891 Carcano

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Originally Posted by old-smithy

it was to make a shorter frog for the No4 bayonet.

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I still don't think it will fit anything...and they go on the belt, not some strap. Do you have any publications with this shown? Doesn't make any sense...and Peter would have experienced it firsthand I would think.

As Jim has said, and I also don't see how the "folded up" frog can fit a belt, unless the belt was under 1 1/2" wide. I was surprised to see a Pig Sticker bayonet displayed in one, with the frog in it's "folded up" state. In my mind the most likely explanation is that the frogs were "folded up" for ease of storage i.e. in order to take up less space. What I'm hoping for is that someone can demonstrate that the frog can indeed be attached to the standard British belt, in it's "folded up" state, in some way that I haven't thought of or is able to provide photographic evidence that the frog was actually used in it's "folded up" state. Thanks for any information.

I would only disagree with Old Smithy with a great deal of trepidation......... When I joined as an apprentice in January 1963 we had No4's and spike bayonets. And for years afterwards small units at home and abroad had No4's and spike bayonets and I never saw frogs folded up. If this were the done thing, it'd be written down somewhere like the 1954 Equipment Regulations. It was these equipment regulations that the stated quite clearly that the brass buckles etc etc of the 1937 pattern webbing were not to be polished but left to dull naturally. That was all well and good but most CSM's and RSM's hadn't heard of them - or less still, read them. And if HE said the brass buckles were to be polished, then guess what happened?

Additionally, during the parade ground order 'SQUAD WILL FIX BAYONETS......... SQUAD........FIX.....' The rifle is pushed forwards to the extend of the right arm and at the same time, the left arm/hand grabs the socket (of the No4 or No9 bayonet), twists it round through 90 degrees and you pull the bayonet out DOWNWARDS out of the scabbard. In doing this, the frog is twisted/rotated downwards to suit. On the next command, a few seconds later of "....BAYONETS....' you fix the bayonet to the rifle, tap it to make sure that it's fixed firmly and bring the rifle back into the right side while the left arm is brought sharply to the left side. None of this could happen if the frog were short or folded as shown. These drills were the same with all the bayonets from the old No1's, No4's and right through to the No5's.

Incidentally, there was no method of fixing the No7 bayonet onto the No4 rifle 'on parade'. Don't ask me how I remember all of these drill movements. Just drummed into you so it became like acting by rote

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Originally Posted by Peter Laidler

the left arm/hand grabs the socket

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With the fingers of the left hand still fully extended and together...

You're right BAR! The difficult drill movement was the SQUAD WILL UNFIX BAYONETS.............. SQUAD......UNFIX. And if it was a cold morning and your hands were cold OR you had gloves on, you could rest assure that a few of the squad would not unfix them properly or fumble it and drop a couple and..........

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Originally Posted by Peter Laidler

fumble it and drop a couple and..........

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Don't be droppin' your bayonets...it's not on!

Ill just shove this bit of info in, as I feel it MIGHT just clarify this topic...perhaps?.....:ugh:

With a '37 Patt Bayonet frog, folded in the manner previously described. I THINK, the posts describing this method. refer from Graham Priests book 'The Spirit of the Pike'. It is a long time since I dug my copy out (& Time permitting!) to read it!
But,..If I remember correctly. I THINK Graham was referring to this 'method' as an RAF modification? I cant comment any further on this at the Mo. But if any of you chaps has a copy of this in depth work. Do dig it out & check out what I have mentioned. As I say, It's been a long time since I have read mine. but I'm SURE He mentions this topic in his Book?....:cheers:

BUT............ Always aware of what's previously been written and pontificated over, you CANNOT fix bayonets if it is folded up like this as well as the other problems associated with folding it up. And as the RAF , Navy, RM and Army drill instructors were ALL taught at the Guards Depot using the same All Arms Drill Book (the bible for drill-pigs), they'd need full length frogs to take part in the course. So what did the RAF do I ask?

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Originally Posted by Peter Laidler

So what did the RAF do I ask?

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NOT rifle drill...my thought is that you don't wear a frog on your pants' belt. Always, no matter what, you wore a web belt with bayonet only, even if in dress for the trooping. The US had a provision for wearing equipment on pants belt but had rigs for that very thing. There's a canvas tab available for securing the #4 scabbard into the long frogs... So, who has Graham Priests' book?

27th July 1944 A.M.O.N. 775 describes how the frog is reversed and folded over to tighten the loop for the No4 frog, this was amended in 1944 A.M.O.N 988 this was for RAF, for army it was No375 1944 for Army, it shortened the frog but removed any needs for re stitching of the frog to fix the No4 scabbard, there were earlier amendments that had slits stitched in the top loop to take the No4 frog stud. If you have a copy of Carter it is No154, if you wait till towards the end of next year it could be ion VolIII of my books on frogs.

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Note this actually results in the loops beign upside down, with the belt loop passing through the top loop and exiting the bottom one.

Peter, since it was a 44 dated instruction it is likely that by the time you entered it was no longer practice as they had the special made No4 frogs by then, this regulation would have been for 07's frogs :madsmile:

Got that Carl...... but what is an A.M.O.N.? I'm totally bamboozled now......... According to my wife, it's my age

I'd never want to argue with Carl...but this still doesn't make ANY sense. Wonder if it was one of these pipe dreams they wrote up, paid someone for saving all that money and then never even used?

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Originally Posted by Peter Laidler

Got that Carl...... but what is an A.M.O.N.? I'm totally bamboozled now......... According to my wife, it's my age

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AMO is Air Ministry Ordnance, the N is part of the number so it should be AMO NXXX (sorry need my glasses obviously)

Jim, I looked at mine and the belt loop is still 2" but don't know how big the belt is normally. I doubt it was a pipe dream as the first RAF one was amended to remove a cut in the loop to take the frog stud, and the Army made their own ordinance for it. I remember this discussion recently on one of the forums as pictures showed knives/bayonets being carried on the webbing not the belt high up and in various ways that made carrying and drawing less problematic.

I'll bet Flying10uk has a belt he can measure...or Peter is using one to hold his pants up.

P37 belt is 2.25" wide.

In the UK section of your other forum thread Old Smithy, it shows an RAF girl with an SA80 and bayonet. The bayonet is strange in that it doesn't have the serrated ground edge along the blade. Never noticed this feature - or lack of this feature - on a SA80 bayonet.

On the subject of bayonet frogs, it'd be worth knowing how many variations there were. There must have been zillions. I do recall that some that were issued allowed the L1A1, No7 and No5 top heavy bayonets to tip over if they didn't have the top supporting strap part. And you couldn't use that top supporting strap thing on parade because if you did, you couldn't disengage the bayonet grip from the frog to fix bayonets. So if you happened to be a member of the drill squad (or were UNfortunately selected to be part of it.....) the Drill Sgt always made sure that you were all equipped with the same frog, gloss painted bayonet and scabbard and the rest of the bull shine that went with it. Yep....... been there......

One day I'll tell you about the visit by the Duke of Edinburgh one drizzly day at Tidworth............

wasn't the none sawback a cadet version, to go with the single action SA80 they had?

---------- Post added at 06:51 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:50 PM ----------

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Originally Posted by gsimmons

P37 belt is 2.25" wide.

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It would be tight but I am sure the folded long 07 frog would still fit on the belt

The issued Cadet rifle didn't have a flash eliminator with bayonet fitting, just a sleeve so Cadets couldn't fix a bayonet. The export or commercial versions did have the flash eliminator.

The RAF frogs pictured in post 1 would take, at a pinch, a belt of no more than 1 1/2" wide in their "folded up" state which is how both frogs came to me from the dealer. I would guess that the dealer got them in this folded state from military storage?

I expect that I have around a dozen different British frogs even though I don't specifically collect them, mainly ones that have come with bayonets.

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Originally Posted by Flying10uk

a belt of no more than 1 1/2" wide in their "folded up" state

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Originally Posted by gsimmons

P37 belt is 2.25" wide

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Still makes me wonder how it worked.

I think that some of the earlier frogs were longer, presumably giving a wider loop when folded, but how wide a belt they would take if folded over I don't know. The frogs which I have in post 1 are definitely not going to take a 2 1/4" wide belt in their folded state.

the one RAF one I have for my book wouldn't take more than a 1" or thereabouts belt either,

Perhaps the RAF sometimes mounted the frog on a smaller belt???