Question....BSA sniper

Last week looked at a No4 MK1 T sniper. It is a BSA 1945. It was a very nice kit complete with chest. Scope and bracket match rifle, fore-end matched....even the scope case matched!!! All the correct markings....the S by the mag cut-off, the T on the left side of the reciever, TR on the wrist, scope # on top of butt etc. The only thing that threw me off was the absence of the S51 stamp on the bottom of the butt. The butt does have the other stampings on the underside the same as my other 1945 BSA T. The fellow is 81 yrs old and told me he acquired the gun in the 60's...I believe that to be true. Is there reason to be concerned that the butt lacks the S51 stamp while everything else seems correct??? I did not pull the butt out of the socket to see if rifle serial # was there!!
No pictures available.
I'm sorry if this question has been asked before on the forum.....sometimes it's difficult to find info pertaining to a specific question.
Your thoughts are appreciated.

It's not a perfect world and maybe it was changed. Just part of the gun story. Not a big concern

Does the patina of the butt resemble the rest of the rifles woods appearance, my guess is it may have been replaced in the field or later on who knows it may have been broken does it have the Weedon star under the wrist as my 1944 BSA T has.
This has raised a question by me if a sniper wanted to change the butt on his sniper rifle was it sanctioned I.E the length of pull was not a good fit for the sniper or they had various stocked rifles that the sniper tried whilst being trained and the best fit rifle stayed with him! TIA

The No. 4 Rifle butts came in four lengths. Bantam, Short, Normal and Long. Marksmanship training specified that soldiers should have the right butt length fitted.

Amazingly, the rifles for the most critical shooters, the snipers, were virtually all supplied with only the Normal butt length! The British conversions to sniper equipment all used the Normal sized butt apparently (though a few other sizes might have slipped through Holland and Holland process on rare occasions.) The No. 15 chests were built for this Normal butt length.

Snipers and armourers did not care about the S51 stamp. If a sniper wanted a longer, or shorter, butt fitted to his rifle it could be done very easily. I am surprised that more were not customized in service.

The sniper div had various sizes of butt and between you and the DS opted for the most suitable for you. When you got back to your unit you asked the Armourers shop to fit that size butt to your allocated rifle (that you kept thereafter). It still happens to this day. Your rifle is fitted with the spacers YOU need. The difference is that now you can change for winter warfare/thick clothing or a temperate climate. No S51...... if everything else is right, forget about it!

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Originally Posted by CINDERS

Does the patina of the butt resemble the rest of the rifles woods appearance, my guess is it may have been replaced in the field or later on who knows it may have been broken does it have the Weedon star under the wrist as my 1944 BSA T has.
This has raised a question by me if a sniper wanted to change the butt on his sniper rifle was it sanctioned I.E the length of pull was not a good fit for the sniper or they had various stocked rifles that the sniper tried whilst being trained and the best fit rifle stayed with him! TIA

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Sorry can't remember if the Weedon star is under the wrist, I no longer have the rifle in front of me. It is many, many miles away. The butt stock's appearance did resemble the forestock although the cheek piece's grain and appearance did not match the rest of the wood.
I was unsuccessful in my attempt to get the old gentleman to sell it to me even though I flashed many, many, many $100 bills. He told me that his caregiver in due time would contact me!!!!

---------- Post added at 04:31 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:24 PM ----------

Thanks for all your input fellows.
Half the fun in collecting is the chase, the other half is making sure one is getting a real authentic piece and that's where you guys are always so helpful.
Merry Christmas to all.

Don't worry about the cheekpiece being of a different appearance to the rest of the woodwork - it usually is, as most UK set up 4T's (certainly from 1943 onwards) were stocked up in imported kiln dried American black walnut, but cheekpieces were made from beech, birch & ash (last could be oak but I think ash more likely). Hence there is generally a difference in appearance. This does not apply to Canadian 4T's where cheekpieces were also generally (?always?) walnut.

Hope this helps.

Gads I thought the Ol' Chap would have passed on happy knowing the rifle was going to someone who appreciated the T's for what they are, going on what prices the T's are getting from a recent auction here for just the rifle if the rifle you looked at had the full kit and chest then you would want at the minimum 150 $100 bills

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Originally Posted by Roger Payne

but cheekpieces were made from beech, birch & ash

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That's interesting, I never saw or heard of them here in anything but walnut.

I've seen a lot (cheekpieces, that is) on UK set up rifles that bear a dark stain, so they may look like walnut - but have a close look - you'll see those medullary rays on the majority of them. For some reason most of the ash ones seem to be on 44 dated rifles. But are are you referring to Canadian 4T's, in which case I'm with you entirely.

ATB

Yes, I mean the Canadian issue and what I've seen here. I can't recall seeing a light cheek-piece.

Thinking about it, it may be the UK set up rifles had cheekpieces produced by local subcontractors using whatever half acceptable wood they could lay their hands on. Your side of the pond good walnut was aplenty, even enough to send us supplies to produce stock sets.

All of the factory Long Branch No.4Mk.1*T rifles I've seen had walnut cheek pieces. They aren't all identical. I've seen two distinct patterns with minor differences.

I've seen three distinct variations of (walnut) Canadian cheekpieces Brian; an early type as fitted to a 39L rifle I owned many years ago that was not identical but very similar to most UK types, & two chunkier varieties seen on later (such as 71L & 90L) rifles. Of these later types one pattern was 'taller & thinner' & one was 'chunkier' from side to side. But both types are a bit meatier than corresponding UK examples. I'll try & get some photo's when I get a minute.

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Originally Posted by CINDERS

Gads I thought the Ol' Chap would have passed on happy knowing the rifle was going to someone who appreciated the T's for what they are, going on what prices the T's are getting from a recent auction here for just the rifle if the rifle you looked at had the full kit and chest then you would want at the minimum 150 $100 bills

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This oldtimer could not be swayed, even by the sight of the wad of cash I waved in front of him!!!! I don't blame him one bit. He was still excited that he owned a all matching T series sniper. Although somehow he thought his piece was more rare and valuable than all the others because of the "V" (almost positive it was a "V" if my memory serves me correct) that pre-ceded the serial #, I just listened and grinned!!!!
God-willing if I live to be a grand old age with my marbles still connected correctly........there ain't going to be a fire sale at my address just because my hair's turned grey and I've got a few more wrinkles!!!!! I should have a lot more time available to myself by then to sit in my lazy-boy chair and stare at the wall where they will all be hanging. I got the idea he wants me to have the rifle but not until he waves goodbye to this life.
Sounds like things in Australia are getting quite pricey........really, they are all over!! Ten years ago if someone had asked me if I would spend $5000-$7500 on a English Enfield sniper in the future I would have thought of them as nuts!!!! I'm now in the hunt for a Longbranch T, I'm really nuts now!!!!
Seriously....as long as my bank is offering about 1% interest in a savings account (and certainly the central bank can't afford raising interest rates any time soon) I'll be putting cash towards Enfields. I only see the market climbing steadily.

And so it shall go up all the time bros, I just posted up a recent buy a 20pdr Centurion round all complete but has a mock fuze the guy said he paid $500 for it no way was I paying that so did a bulk deal got it for 200-ish thing is years ago collectors showed little interest in these things now with the electronic age and flea bay things are roofing it for prices. I rarely ever sell stuff as I have been done over by me being a newbie and the buyer well informed my fault for not being more astute, now the family can sort it whilst I get flashed and ashed......

They might get flashed and ashed more than you in the deals.

Probably true Bindi hopefully I can encourage their enthusiasm so they will keep my meagre collection in the family

Ok I feel we are getting a little off topic but felt I had to chime in. I have a friend that has quite a large, very valuable Winchester collection. In a short while he is turning 70........not that old but as we know time marches on!!! Every firearm he owns is catalogued and numbered. Under each entry a family member or the executor of the will upon his passing will have the year of purchase, the price paid, legal status (antique, non-restricted, restricted etc.,) and of coarse the current value. Not sure how often he updates "current value". To me this makes a lot of sense......I am sure there were a lot of ill informed widows that got screwed over monetarily and this only multiplies itself when the fear factor of firearm legalities is applied. Most ill informed, have some stigma attached to having firearms in there possession and are more than happy to rid themselves of them at the earliest opportunity often settling for pennies on the dollar!!!!!
Nothing wrong with a good deal but...........

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Originally Posted by Bindi2

They might get flashed and ashed more than you in the deals.

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Originally Posted by Roger Payne

I've seen three distinct variations of (walnut) Canadian cheekpieces Brian; an early type as fitted to a 39L rifle I owned many years ago that was not identical but very similar to most UK types, & two chunkier varieties seen on later (such as 71L & 90L) rifles. Of these later types one pattern was 'taller & thinner' & one was 'chunkier' from side to side. But both types are a bit meatier than corresponding UK examples. I'll try & get some photo's when I get a minute.

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Hi Roger, I know what you mean about the chunkier Canadian ones. I've a 39L and as well as being walnut as you mentioned, the cheekpiece has a distinctly different profile from my BSA one. A few pics of my two.

Kev

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Originally Posted by desperatedan

distinctly different profile

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Yes they do. That's a good comparison...

Bros a good deal to me is an equitable price agreed to by both parties I for one will tell them what the market values are and go on the condition of the fire arm based on my knowledge of that type of weapon most of the people appreciate some one that will go through the deal explaining along the way the good and bad points and arrive at a price to suit.
That way one can have a clear mind it was a fair exchange and the seller may learn a little about the weapons history but more importantly than that you have conducted yourself in an honest and caring manner to show them your not there to rip them off I could not live with myself ripping someone off who has just lost their partner in life just to save a few dollars.

But others on this planet do not have the scruples others may posses. Note* this was a generalization and not directed at any one or anything just me being CINDERS

Thanks Kevin, nice photo's.