Why doesn't anyone produce new historic military firearms?

Surely there's a market... Some companies like Pedersoli produce semi-accurate historic representations of old black powder military arms, and Fulton Armory produces new M1 Garands and M1 Carbines, but why not produce new copies of some of the more popular rifles like the Springfield 1903 and the Lee-Enfield no.4 (maybe in .308) for those who want shooters. Granted they would probably cost more than the $400 beaters most of us have but they'd be in far better condition, and it's not like they'd hurt the collectability or value of the originals. And hell, in the case of the M1903a3's it's not like you're not paying around $1,000 now anyway.

I'd love to have a brand new Lee-Enfield without having to pay $2000 that I could shoot without having to worry about hurting the value and collectability... I can't be the only one.

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Originally Posted by amadeus76

I'd love to have a brand new Lee-Enfield without having to pay $2000

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For less than that you can buy and restore one. Do a parkerize and it'll look new. Then there's little collector value, so bang away.

Where are you seeing Enfield's at $2000?

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Originally Posted by amadeus76

Surely there's a market... Some companies like Pedersoli produce semi-accurate historic representations of old black powder military arms, and Fulton Armory produces new M1 Garands and M1 Carbines, but why not produce new copies of some of the more popular rifles like the Springfield 1903 and the Lee-Enfield no.4 (maybe in .308) for those who want shooters. Granted they would probably cost more than the $400 beaters most of us have but they'd be in far better condition, and it's not like they'd hurt the collectability or value of the originals. And hell, in the case of the M1903a3's it's not like you're not paying around $1,000 now anyway.

I'd love to have a brand new Lee-Enfield without having to pay $2000 that I could shoot without having to worry about hurting the value and collectability... I can't be the only one.

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Google "Australian Internation Arms" and read around and you will see that it has been tried - and failed.

1) You surely do not need to pay $2000 for an Enfield No. 4 Mk2 in good shooting condition. (OK, maybe I'm out of touch with the market)
2) Over here (Mauserland) the AIA reproductions were rejected for competition shooting as being neither original nor true enough to the original to be fair competition.
3) I have a friend who bought an AIA imitation Enfield. When he discovered that he could not use it for competitions, he also discovered that it was a problem to get rid of it, as no other serious shooter wanted it either.
4) Such storied get around the shooting community pretty fast, with corresponding marketing results.
5) There used to be many more makers of BP replicas that have disappeared over the years. Only historical accuracy and good shooting quality will survive today. Something that AIA appears to have ignored. Pedersoli has survived and prospered by making very good replicas that stand comparison with originals and usually perform better than the beater originals that one can actually buy, as opposed to admiring in museums and private collections. They are also often more expensive than the beaters. If I could find an original flintlock target rifle that cost less but performed as well as my Pedersoli Mortimer I would get it. (In fact, I would be pleased if I could find an original flintlock target rifle at all.)

6) In a couple of decades it well may look different for more modern firearms, but at present the market, at least in Europe, does not appear to be viable for modern firearms replicas. There are still enough originals around to make the marketable price uneconomic for replicas of high historical accuracy and quality. And legal restrictions on firearm ownership put a brake on the hoarding that seems to drive prices sky-high in the USA.

$2000 Enfields would be the paper wrapped ones that were never issued or fired but even those typically aren't $2000 although some guys ask that for them. Plenty of good shooters out there in the $300-$400 range and the $400 ones don't look that shabby either.

Some companies have tried in the US too, to add to Patrick's example. Someone makes a new FG42 but it's exceptionally slow selling as it's over $4000 last I checked. Same for Ohio Ordnance's BAR. HMG's StG44 is $1800 and I don't know if any have shipped yet as they kept running into issues, and that was with re-engineering parts of the action to work better and be more cost effective to produce. Basically when you make something, the object in question often doesn't cost very much. It's the cost of the tools and research to actually build it, and those are what it is hard to make money back on when you have a limited market, which is why you don't see it too often. Just copying the blue prints doesn't really work, as evidenced by the exceptionally poor quality of IO Inc's AKs built "from the original Polish Blueprints".

Was not there a place that made faithful 03 and 03 sniper replicas he presented Ted Gundy with one hang on I find the video....... Navy Arms is the company sadly Ted passed away last Nov RIP
Here is the vid (short version) if you have not seen it;
https://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&r...HYTJNnU200b3Jw

Ted Gundy... Ted Bundy was famous for errr.... other things.

Dunno about ted bundy, but I shore used to get a laugh out of AL BUNDY :rofl:

I don't really see a market for making full military style bolt-action rifles anymore. It is just too expensive (manufacturing any firearm is expensive now, and why as a collector would I pay over 2000$ for a new manufacture firearm when I can generally buy a mint condition original for less than that. Even if I am not buying a mint one, I tend to be able to buy several different firearms for that 2000$). What I can see being a possibility is people manufacturing parts for these old rifles to keep them going, that I can see a market for.

Put quite simply the economics do not work when you can buy a tack driving Ruger American 30-06 for $450 and a pretty nice original 03A3 for $750.
The cost of the current reproductions previously noted would indicate to me that a milspec 03A3 for example would be so high no one would pay with no military pedigree or chance to appreciate in value.
It does seem the cost/benefit equation is balanced to the point that replacement barrels are coming to market. Perhaps in time it could be profitable for
complete rifles. The example of the reproduction Ford Mustangs comes to mind.

Economics is a big problem. Can't talk Savage into bringing back the 99 because of economics and that's a rifle that was in continuous production for 80+ years.

I read a few posts on AIA interesting they classed it as not a faithful repro of a No.4 perhaps to copy the action/rifle faithfully would have entailed far more machining which would have bumped up the price I watched the vid on "Franken Rifle" interesting comments about the AIA at least they had a go perhaps they will be collectible given the small No.s produced just do not try and get spare parts for them apparently....

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Originally Posted by CINDERS

I read a few posts on AIA interesting they classed it as not a faithful repro of a No.4 perhaps to copy the action/rifle faithfully would have entailed far more machining which would have bumped up the price I watched the vid on "Franken Rifle" interesting comments about the AIA at least they had a go perhaps they will be collectible given the small No.s produced just do not try and get spare parts for them apparently....

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Here in Canada AIA rifles seem to be in demand and usually don't last long when offered for sale. Parts are a issue and the only thing that might break would be a extractor and I have a good friend that could make me one. I have a spares kit for a 7.62X39 thanks to AIA and find they are pretty good overall. All three of mine are now Safe Queens like so many guns I own. Magazines for the .308's sell for 200.00 ++ as they are 10 rounds and fit a M14 or Norinco 305. It allows you to use it being a gray area in our gun laws.

I always wanted a S&W 44 caliber Russian revolver. The originals in nice condition are very expensive and you really would not want to shoot them (even with black powder)

About fifteen years ago I bought the Uberti copy of the S&W 44 cal Russian contract revolver for $740.00 Even the top rib is marked in Russian like the originals but the
Uberti copy is really a combination of the last two Russian contract models. I like it
and the 44 Russian cartridge is very easy to reload and can be very accurate. At last check of the gun auctions, these used Uberti Russians were selling for around $950.00 now

I would always choose an original arm over any kind of replica if possible. It is the idea that the firearm is part of history. Most originals were built to high quality specs that are hard to duplicate. I suppose if you are purely a shooter you wouldn't care about the history but then why not just buy the new Ruger? Think about some of the M1 Carbine replicas and the Federal Ordnance 03a3's--ugh! (Uberti is one of the few quality replica makers and I do like RCS's Russian---nice!) IMHO Salt Flat

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Originally Posted by Salt Flat

I would always choose an original arm over any kind of replica if possible. It is the idea that the firearm is part of history. Most originals were built to high quality specs that are hard to duplicate. I suppose if you are purely a shooter you wouldn't care about the history but then why not just buy the new Ruger? Think about some of the M1 Carbine replicas and the Federal Ordnance 03a3's--ugh! (Uberti is one of the few quality replica makers and I do like RCS's Russian---nice!) IMHO Salt Flat

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I would agree, I guess that's why we are members of Milsurps..

Though I would agree reproduction firearms have their place, they arn't for me.

A certain UK Firearms dealer was selling "new" SMLE'S a few years back, based on NOS WW2 dispersal action bodies and bolts, built up with new barrels and woodwork.

No history, sanitised and really not terribly well finished (At least the examples I have seen).

For a lot of arms it's not economically worthwhile because there's still plenty of originals about at affordable prices - but for others, such as the Mauser C96 9mm pistol or the Webley Mk IV .38 revolver - I'm genuinely surprised Norinco or Uberti aren't making reproductions of them (with the Webley chambered for .38 Special).

I mean, it's apparently economically viable for Uberti to make a repro of a Colt Percussion Conversion centrefire pistol (how many people realistically want one of those?) but making a Webley Mk IV in .38 Special is apparently not worth it for anyone.

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Originally Posted by Colonel Enfield

the Mauser C96 9mm pistol

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I'd think it would be inordinately expensive to reproduce.

There is a company that sells newly made replicas of some historic military firearms, just not the ones you are looking for. Uberti (Benelli USA) Quality Replica Guns of the Old West | Uberti

One might think if Uberti can sell their products, it stands to reason that they could produce other guns in the same price range.

How about a new semi-auto Thompson? Auto-Ordnance Auto-Ordnance | Original manufacturer of the world famous

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Originally Posted by Colonel Enfield

For a lot of arms it's not economically worthwhile because there's still plenty of originals about at affordable prices - but for others, such as the Mauser C96 9mm pistol or the Webley Mk IV .38 revolver - I'm genuinely surprised Norinco or Uberti aren't making reproductions of them (with the Webley chambered for .38 Special).

I mean, it's apparently economically viable for Uberti to make a repro of a Colt Percussion Conversion centrefire pistol (how many people realistically want one of those?) but making a Webley Mk IV in .38 Special is apparently not worth it for anyone.

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Tons of people want old west style guns. Part of the reason it is viable for companies to make modern repros of 1880s and earlier guns is simply due to the fact the quantity of those firearms produced were relatively low (limitations of technology etc.) and the condition the originals tend to be in is fairly poor. Coupled with the fact that since the condition is crap and the price is high very few people can reasonably afford to shoot a original.

A C96 Mauser was a very expensive firearm to produce, now it would be even worse. A better option might be that Spanish 'copy' which was simplified as it is very similar (I believe it had the name Astra 700 or something of that nature) appearance wise but would be easier to make. In regards to the Webley in .38 special, your really starting to push the limits of that design with that caliber. Generally speaking most people are more interested in swing out cylinders, and generally prefer it to be .357 so they can choose between .38 or .357.

Another thing I just remembered there are companies making M1 Carbine repros and such and they tend not to sell to well as most people are willing to buy a original rather than take a repro.

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Originally Posted by browningautorifle

I'd think it would be inordinately expensive to reproduce.

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You only have to strip a C96 down to see what a complex and expensive pistol it would be to reproduce ... Some really serious machining and hand fitting required!

Talking about C96's, I remember my first attempt at putting one back together (we've all been there), a mate of mine bought one about 25 years ago and took it apart to see what made it tick ... 4 fruitless hours later he came round to my house to consult my " Small Arms of the World" Bible, and between us we figured it out.

Thank God for a good solid reference library .. especially in the days before the internet was there to help!

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Originally Posted by Vincent

How about a new semi-auto Thompson?

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The other ones that fired from a closed bolt were a pain compared to a real one...I guess once you've been spoiled by a real one you're spoiled...

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Originally Posted by mrclark303

Some really serious machining and hand fitting required!

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That was what I was picturing, the whole mechanism in hand after being lifted out of the body. That would be another thing...so, they'd have to simplify that too.

I think that one of the most interesting classic reproductions was the Navy Arms N.J. production of fifty Henry rifles chambered in 44 Henry rim fire around 1976. They even had 44 Henry rim fire
cartridges manufactured in South America for use in these rifles. Many of these rifles were engraved too. Later Navy Arms went to Uberti in Italy to continue manufacture of the Henry in 44-40
caliber which requires a longer carrier block.

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Originally Posted by RCS

a longer carrier block

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Wonder why they didn't do them in 44 Russian, or special for a shorter over all?

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Originally Posted by browningautorifle

The other ones that fired from a closed bolt were a pain compared to a real one...I guess once you've been spoiled by a real one you're spoiled...

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Yes, the real McCoy is the best… but you can still get very close with a semi.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=22BXs_C3GdQ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nha0romTFgY

I got curious after posting here a few days ago and did more digging... the HMG STG44s have still yet to ship. Initially I thought they were too much for what would really be a novelty for me, then I started to talk myself into it with the idea of seeing what initial reviews were, but these delays would have me nervous if I had laid down $1800 for one. Anyone here order one? The idea of getting one in 7.92 Kurz (which a local shop does in fact stock) and a conversion kit to "normal" caliber for bulk shooting intrigued me.

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Originally Posted by Vincent

you can still get very close with a semi.

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Well...sort of...

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Originally Posted by cipherk98

the HMG STG44s

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A friend of mine got one some time ago, and loves it. Very novel...

A couple of friends here in the UK have the German 7.92 Kurtz MP44 re-creations Jim, great quality and fun to shoot with negligible recoil.

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Originally Posted by mrclark303

the German 7.92 Kurtz MP44 re-creations

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Now I think about it, I'm a bit out of whack with facts. He has the MP44 copy in .22 and the FG 42 copy in semi auto. The FG cost him $10,000, which of course caused his wife to go ballistic. The MP44(STG) was in .22 and he loves it. He had to pay off the FG in $2500CDN monthly payments until done.

I heard they also did an FG42 Jim, I was privileged to handle an original 1st pattern example last year, now that's one reproduction I would love in my collection!

Must admit some of the replica reproduction BP revolvers and rifles are of excellent quality, shot quite a few but own a Ruger Old Army in Stainless.......not really a copy of a historic BP gun but does the job, and fairly indestructible.

After watching various parts of Where eagles dare over several days during the festive season I had a look at some of the reviews of the .22 MP40...... all seem quite good, of course it doesn't end there, had to have a look at the MP44 also...... maybe have a look for one when the market is flooded with second hand ones, bit like the prices of the GSG MP5 and the 1911, which I acquired for very reasonable prices....... The MP5 is more for practising my kneeling and standing shooting, cheap and cheap to run, there is a clip on youtube of a guy who swapped the butt etc for woodwork off a G3 rifle, looked really good.

The .22 GSG MP44 does seem to be an interesting piece Geoff, solid, heavy as the original and utilising a quality bolt group.

Never fired, but handled one and I have to say I was impressed, a faithful copy of the original classic.

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Originally Posted by bigduke6

the .22 MP40......

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That would be as much fun as a '28 Thompson in .22 I should think. Specially if it was FA...you'd need two boys with buckets to keep ammo to it...and a dozen mags. Much like the FN C1A1 I had in FA with sub cal device...back in the '80s in the army.

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Originally Posted by Eaglelord17

Tons of people want old west style guns. Part of the reason it is viable for companies to make modern repros of 1880s and earlier guns is simply due to the fact the quantity of those firearms produced were relatively low (limitations of technology etc.) and the condition the originals tend to be in is fairly poor. Coupled with the fact that since the condition is crap and the price is high very few people can reasonably afford to shoot a original.

A C96 Mauser was a very expensive firearm to produce, now it would be even worse. A better option might be that Spanish 'copy' which was simplified as it is very similar (I believe it had the name Astra 700 or something of that nature) appearance wise but would be easier to make. In regards to the Webley in .38 special, your really starting to push the limits of that design with that caliber. Generally speaking most people are more interested in swing out cylinders, and generally prefer it to be .357 so they can choose between .38 or .357.

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It would go without saying that a repro Webley would have to be a bit beefier to handle the cartridge. Alternatively you could chamber it for 9mm Parabellum perhaps?

I've heard the C96 was like an intricate and diabolical clock inside so a modern repro would have to be simplified - I suspect most of the intented market really want the external appearance (because it is very cool) combined with modern metallurgy and firearms technology advances.

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Originally Posted by Colonel Enfield

the C96 was like an intricate and diabolical clock inside

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It's artwork...yes, they'd need to simplify it. Then the gun was rust blued by hand outside only. The one I had was still in the white inside.