A question for Capt Laidler on the Sten

So my lovely wife bought me a copy of your book; "The Sten Machine Carbine" and while I enjoyed it a lot and am now thinking I need a L50A1 to go with my L59A1, a few questions arise that I have had for a quite some time:

Most significant is the production quantity. Something "seems" not right about the official figures of over 4,300,000 made. I know the official contact /serial number ranges indicate this, but the use history and photos do not as evidenced by the following:

1) There are supposed to be 300,000 MK I and MK I *. They are simply not shown anywhere in any pictures of troops from 1944 and 1945. MK I* pictures simply do not exist, except for museum shots, yet 100,000 were supposed to be made.

If they made so many starting in 1941, why was it not a standard item in the list of changes until 1943? if they made 300,000, and they had virtually no issue history, why would they have made them obsolete in 1947? Now compare that to the 79,000 known made Lancaster's (from "The Guns of Dagenham"), of which a lot of pictures exist and they have a service history to the 1970s.Seems to me the production quantity was very small of that variant.

2) The supposed 2.6 million (plus) MK II versions: how is they made that many were they short on these guns in November of 1952? It boggles the imagination.

The US made 1 million M3/M3A1 MP and there was no shortage of them even when they were put out to pasture in 1994, the standard unit armorers solution to any major issue was to torch the old one an get a new one (or so I have been told by a few folks in the us system from 1984 to 1994). Yet they were not only used in WWII (very late, but Korea, Vietnam and were the standard A army MP from 1946 to 1960. If the UK had 2.5 times the number they should have still had massive numbers of guns available at the end of the cold war.

3) the issue rate: So the UK had around 1.3 million SMLE MKIII rifles, and build/recovered around 235,000 in WWII, with around 2 million No 4 made and another 1.5 million coming in from North America that indicates a total first line quantity of 5 million SMLE rifles. Stens should have been issued on the order of 4 to 1 at most, so 4 million Stens would have been sufficed for around 17.2 million rifles, or said another way , they really only needed around 1~1.25 million submachine guns. Yet there is another 1.3 million MK III/MK V Stens made on top of the 2.6 million MK II and 300,000 MK I (which appear nowhere as previously stated)

lets look at german production ratios: 13 million rifles, 1.075 million MP38/40 made, 100,000 MP 28/EMP/MP34/MP38/42 plus 425,000 MP 44 or a ratio of 8.66 rifles to MP

The US: 14 million rifles made/in stores (4 million M1, 2.0 million M1903/03/, 1,900,000 M1917/6 million M1 carbine) around 2.9 million M1928/M1/M3 made (of which 200,000 ended up at the bottom of the Atlantic) or a ratio of 4.8

4) The post war disposition: So if the UK had had 4 million left over in 1945, one would expect the distribution of these to foreign armies, especially NATO in the 1949 to 1960 time frame to be more large spread, but there seems to be a distinct lack of same. Yes there was the 75,000 Interarms exchange with Finland in the late 1950s, yes a lot were sent to India I am sure, but the extent to which the Stens issue history ends in 1963 does not make sense if there were 4.3 million of them, compare that the M1, of which a total of 6 million were made and its wide NATO/CENTO/SEATO issue up until the 1970s. If there were so many made, where did they end up? India/Pakistan is the obvious answer, but the records do not seem to support several million being sent out to India

In particular the British sense of never throwing anything useful away. Of course there were the dumping at sea of obsolete ordnance in the late 1950s and early 1960s, but there is not discussion of this with Stens, unlike the P14 rifles.



In any case I am wondering your thoughts on this. It was one aspect of the Sten story I still wonder about. I was hoping I would read more about in your most excellent book. perhaps I read it in my first read, there was so much to read that I might have missed it. If they really were made, what happened to all of them?

Large numbers of Stens which were supplied to the resistance organisations in continental Europe during WW2 probably never surfaced again after the war due to either being captured by the Germans or being retained as "souvenirs". A few thousand Stens must have been lost at the Battle of Arnhem with a significant number probably falling into German hands. Stens supplied to resistance organisations in the Far East were most likely either lost, captured by the Japanese or retained by the organisation and in some cases used against the British Post War. Stens were supplied by the U.K. to other countries such as Finland, Post War.

There were at least 300,000 STEN Mk1 &1*, Sten mk1* serial N294024 was in the Howard stern collection. I have seen 2 in the N240,000 region and I have a Mk1 in the N079,000 range. Most appear to have had lives in the home guard and training environments but I know of one that has a confirmed SOE history and one that surfaced in France as an ex Resistence gun. Indeed the resistence must have had a large consignment as I believe it was they who through SOE requested a version that could be stripped down for concealment.

You may also note that lots of these Mk1 &1* guns ended up in film work both during the war and after. Famous films such as The Guns of Naverone used Mk1* guns which I believe were from Bapties.

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...24c45376-1.jpg

Gather they are the home guard with .303 P-14's and answering #1's question on pics of early Stens

I am perfectly willing to be told I am wrong, as all of the documentations says I am. To be frank I am expecting I am wrong but the mystery of disposition of these guns still exists and one picture does not answer the question, as the home guard of ~1 million active men did not take up the entire supply of 300,156 guns.

Further as the guns started to roil out in March of 1941, and the Home guard was "stood down" on 3 December 1944, these guns did not get that much of a work out, they should have been in excellent condition at demob. Between 3 December 1944 and 31 December 1945 they would have been on the books of the Home guard. They would have still been at Home Guard armories, as the organization existed, they just were not in active service.

Yet these 300,156 guns were declared obsolete on 24 September 1947, and do not appear again (the No 1 MKIII was obsolete around the same time but brought back into active stores again in 1954), nor are there large surplus sales, nor a disposition records like with a lot of the P14 rifles used by the home guard (sold in the large surplus sales in late 1950s, possibly some sent to Pakistan in the 1948/49 time frame or dumped at sea 1954~ 1959).

There is still a mystery here.

If I was teaching at a school and the same were asked I'd suggest that he come back after the days lessons had ended and we'd discuss it and in the meantime, do a bit of homework that he could put before me in order to further the discussion somewhat. Then, later, one day next week....., again after the last lesson, the whole class could partake in the interesting and worthwhile discussion I suggest that you coud come to the UK for a week or so and go through the papers at the Public Records Office that relate to the most interesting Q's that have been raised. Then share them with us all because I simply haven't got the time - nor inclination if I was truly honest - to do it. My book was really about the actual Sten, a bit about its life and times and a bit about my dealings with it as opposed to the wartime and postwar distribution of the gun. That is what we call '......mission creep'

Very well, I will put what figures I have found together in various sources in a report and post it here.

I was by no means criticizing the book, it was well written, had copious facts, pictures and more detail that will make multiple reading worth while. All your books are excellent and I am up to 4 of them. But my question comes up as nowhere, anywhere in fact does the issue of the large production numbers which does not seem to match an expected issue history seem to be addressed. I was hoping you might have a quick answer, being to a lot of us the "holy Grail of UK MOD weapons knowledge".

Now I have to get the Bren book, but I fear doing so as then I will need a Bren an impulse I have avoided so far....

My Mk I STEN (serial # N 023315) was theoretically part of a large batch of 35,602 guns that were recalled and destroyed (page 301 of Peter's book). To add further confusion, my gun came from Switzerland, and presumably came across the border from France after the war. All of this just goes to show that 'official directives' often are at considerable variance with reality! Bureaucrats think they control the World when, in reality, most people just ignore them!

Please don't think I even thought that you were criticizing the little Sten book. Far from it. It's just that it's been written, published and what was written was what was available in the UK Military archives at the time.

As for Woodsies gun N-023315, it could possibly be that this gun had already been parachuted into France by the time the order was issued so it missed the clop - like, probably thousands of the folded and wrapped Mk2's The PROBLEM with an order to withdraw Sten guns between X and y serial number is that the serial number is stamped into the mag housing and it's not the mag housing that is faulty. So if in the intervening years the mag housing has been changed over to another, say, damaged or defective gun, then the now repaired gun gets the chop by default

Possibly official U.K. records are not as complete/accurate as they could be due to some official paperwork being unintentionally lost over the years and not ending up in the Public Record Office? Probably the last thing on Civil Servants minds during WW2 was to save every scrap of paper relating to Stens solely for the benefit of future historians.

A thought with no fact to back it up...
it has been mentioned that a lot of home guard rifles ended up with heavily corded barrels from excessive cleaning. Plus that various peace time canadian rifles (c1's?) ended up loose from excessive cleaning. Could the home guard stens have ended up with similar wear?
In the post war economy it could have been simpler/cheaper to just replace them instead of ftr-ing them?

Just checked those pages, I missed them originally, there is so much detail I suspect I will read this a few times to digest it all.

so that accounts for 35, 602 of the MK I Stens.

Was it common to destroy or DP problematic Stens? If so how common were such beasts? I know this would have been from before your time, but as a rough percentage, were 5% defective, 10 % or higher defective from a functional point of view.

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Originally Posted by henry r

A thought with no fact to back it up...
it has been mentioned that a lot of home guard rifles ended up with heavily corded barrels from excessive cleaning. Plus that various peace time canadian rifles (c1's?) ended up loose from excessive cleaning. Could the home guard stens have ended up with similar wear?
In the post war economy it could have been simpler/cheaper to just replace them instead of ftr-ing them?

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Quite a fair bit of the damage done to a service firearm tends to be excessive 'cleaning'. For example I have met idiots who felt it was a good idea to take a screwdriver and scrape the crown of the rifle until it shined. They called it the 'silver ring' (this being taught to them by other idiots who insisted upon this 'cleaning' standard). Other things such as constant assembly and disassembly (in particular over assembly and disassembly, such as trying to take of the pistol grip on a C7 which messes up the whole trigger mech) and abuse/lack of caring/lack of knowledge about the firearms leads to them being damaged.

Not sure about the Stens, but it still happens to this day and I suspect it happens in most militaries.

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Originally Posted by henry r

canadian rifles (c1's?) ended up loose from excessive cleaning

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They ended up loose from being used continuously for 30 years...and not all of them were loose. I take it you were Canadian army and carried one?

me. no, but you were:

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Originally Posted by browningautorifle

Yes, rifle team guns were well treated by comparison. Rifle company rifles were cleaner though, but then they weren't as tight because of it. Mind you, every year the rifle companies would be gone through by the rifle team to glean the best they had for the team. Mine was taken...

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https://www.milsurps.com/showthread.php?t=59000 #8

and as I said it was just a thought based off no fact, (or personal knowledge / experience) just extending off what I have read here.

Peter! 'Little' Sten Gun Book????? Nothing LITTLE in the mass of content within that work of yours! :eek: I dread to think of how many hours went into just THAT publication Mate!.....

You have gained an accolade also of being a 'Holy Grail'......Good Stuff! :thup:

Although you know I would take the P*ss & call you 'My Holy Snail'!....:D

I have a few of your works on one of my bookshelves. & like others, Hungrily await the day the Bren Work is released!....:cheers:

Blessings be upon You, & may your house be Honoured with a thousand camels!......
(Hope you have enough room, & the money to pay for feed. & the logistic staff required to clean up the mess! ) :bow:

With ref to the Mk1, when it was damaged, why keep it? There's not much to salvage as it's mostly unique to the Mk1 so just chop it up. There were thousands of other marks so not really much use to fixing them.

I don't think I've ever seen a DP Sten other than the late L guns. I'd imagine they just used normal service weapons for training. That's the current policy for the L85, all training done on live guns.

There was to be a programme for a DP L85. It was to have been the L114 (or L116?) as I recall and there were several variations trialed. The winner as such combined the best features of the 4 trials varieties. Eventually dropped for several reasons not disclosed

That would have been an interesting variation but I bet there wouldn't be enough L85s in the system. Typically we have about 30 guys on a Common Core Skills day (CCS) so 30 DP rifles per unit for say 20 units and the RAF would need at least 600 for guard training alone. Thinking about it I'm probably wrong and there would be plenty.

Actually I think I have a photo of one the Trial DP guns. I'll need to fire up the old steam powered computer.

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Originally Posted by Eaglelord17

Not sure about the Stens, but it still happens to this day and I suspect it happens in most militaries.

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Only when scotchbrite starts to infiltrate the cleaning kits....

I just love it when the big sections of Green scotchbright come out to play. And those individuals that think that every component should be chrome like and polished to till you can see your boat race in it.

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Originally Posted by Brit plumber

I just love it when the big sections of Green scotchbright come out to play. And those individuals that think that every component should be chrome like and polished to till you can see your boat race in it.

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Or when the L1A1 SLR was in Service, I observed quite often. 'User's. after a range session, 'Spinning' the gas piston head in sand. (Similar to starting a fire with a bow & stick plus tinder) & happily wearing the chrome off the piston crown Etc!!! & some of the Airborne Lads, stripping furniture off & 'cleaning' the rifles in the showers!!!!!!!!! Luckily, The Butt's complete with recoil springs were not immersed!....Which was a saving grace I suppose?.

'Happy (?) Day's'..........:D

I still preferred oil and pullthrough cloths...after they stopped us from using volatile mineral spirits that is. There really wasn't a quicker way to clean things...just a different load of things to do.

The best effective method was to just dunk the piston and gas plug into a bottle of vinegar 'liberated' from the dining room. But you always knew when the crunchies had used this method because eventually it's seize the gas plug spring and plunger. How many have sat at the side of the ranges cleaning a blooxx Bren after a days military training. Not a speck of fouling was permitted, anywhere!

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Originally Posted by Peter Laidler

a bottle of vinegar

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I'd forgotten that one. Just before ATI you could find an open vessel somewhere in stores with a number of pistons for FN sticking out of them.

Why vinegar?

Is it more effective for carbon removal? I have used white vinegar to remove blue, it works for that.

Just found some record that indicate the following:

~859,000 MK III Stens made, not 876,000

~50,000 of those were sold to Finland via Interarms.

Interarms also sold some to Kenya, quantity unknown

India received something like ~100,000 between 1948 and 1950, provided as commonwealth aid or as payment for monies owned to India from WWII. That figure was quoted as a gross estimate by the way.

That said there is still 700,000 that the final disposition is lacking.

The implications are the Sten in active service did not last very long.

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Originally Posted by Frederick303

That said there is still 700,000 that the final disposition is lacking.

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Are you able to explain how you arrive at this figure of 700,000, please, Fredderick303?

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Originally Posted by Frederick303

Why vinegar

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It's an acidic base...and would eat the crap but not the chrome. Also as you know, blue.

Good for removing rust from motorbike petrol tanks and other things, needs a long soak though......

Back to Stens, (have mentioned it before) I don't know the figure but by mates Uncle witnessed a Train heading for Vickers with a few of the goods/mineral wagons full of Sten's going to the smelting pot...... unfortunately and like many the story has gone to the grave, would of been nice to sit down and get the full story but at the time you never think.

Flying ten.............. please, please. please........... DON'T get Fred303 started on his number crunching exploits again. The thread will be bigger than Ben-Hur before long

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Originally Posted by Peter Laidler

The best effective method was to just dunk the piston and gas plug into a bottle of vinegar 'liberated' from the dining room. But you always knew when the crunchies had used this method because eventually it's seize the gas plug spring and plunger. How many have sat at the side of the ranges cleaning a blooxx Bren after a days military training. Not a speck of fouling was permitted, anywhere!

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And as you know Pete, Coca Cola was another cleaning 'Option' of choice with the Crunchies!.......:cheers:

Somewhere, years ago I heard that Coca Cola was also good for freeing up seized engines but I can't remember who told me and I've never tried it myself. Has anyone else had any experience of using Coca Cola as a freeing/cleaning agent???

not on firearms (and I don't think I woiuld), but I have also dipped a few vw fuseboxes in coke to clean up the tarnished contacts. (not for too long, they were then cleaned with soapy water and rinsed in clean water, etc.) it worked well on the plastic ones but I experimented on a spare rough Bakelite? fusebox and the Bakelite didn't react well.

I have also used coke to clean concrete with reasonable success. proper concrete cleaning chemicals would probably have worked better but I had been offered a couple of cases of date expired coke to try.

F10. Coke is good at eating Carbon. Used on sparking plugs from vehicles, Exhaust valves' when removed Etc.

Used with CARE, on some applications. It can be useful.

It is also very good for drinking as well!....:cheers:

henry, if you ever visit the U.K. be very careful about saying coke too loudly because people may just think that you are talking about something completely different to Coca Cola. :nono: :ugh:

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Originally Posted by Flying10uk

Has anyone else had any experience of using Coca Cola as a freeing/cleaning agent???

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I have not, but I have seen Dog Pi** Dave use it to clean coins.

Didn’t the original Coca-Cola have cocaine in it?

Peter,

Geez, I did not think I was that bad, just an engineers approach.

gave me a laugh though....

I know this is an even bigger tangent but if you don't know the story of Coke in WW2 have a wiki search. It's a very clever strategy that worked beyond the what Coca Cola had hoped for. It was so successful that (So the story goes) the Germans copied the idea and created 'Fantasy' a fizzy orange drink which we now know as Fanta.

Just Wikid Fanta and that's another interesting WW2 story but it was created by Coca Cola Germany in 1940 to circumvent trade embargos rather than as a morale booster along the lines of Coke.

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Originally Posted by Frederick303

Geez, I did not think I was that bad, just an engineers approach.

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You are not that bad, Frederick303, just an individual like the rest of us.