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In my effort to replace my #2 carbines' broken barrel band I purchased a replacement represented as original. Broken original band is on the left. I suspect I may be sending the replacement back for a refund. I appreciate experts eyes on and opinions. What do you guys think and why?
Thanks. <0
I can add more pics but from what I can see in this one they may not be needed.
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo..._barrel_-1.jpg
Have a good look at the add especially if you got it from fleabay as sometimes it is listed as new (up the top) then later on somewhere in the description it may mention reproduction just read it carefully if it is a bona fide repro approach the seller for A) Cash reduction in purchase price C) Return the item at their cost they add the postage to your refunded purchase price.
But seriously look at the advert if an amicable solution is reached then there is no need to go to the disputes part.
Or you could accept it for what it is plonk it on the rifle and carry on slinging lead then you may happen onto an original at a cheap price hey presto rifles back to near original and you can always flog the non original but list it as such having been in disputes on fleabay sometimes it is just not worth the effort protracted and messy.
Or get the original repaired re-parked or blued and there you go........your call.
Quote:
Originally Posted by CINDERS
See the break? How can that be fixed?
re. the replacement: Not an ebay purchase and the seller will take a return. My question is: Is the band on the right a repro and why or why not?
# 3 About the band I cannot tell you as we are not allowed those weapons those that know all about the Carbines will be along shortly I was offering advice on returns, also if its metal why cannot it be arc welded/brazed, Tigg'ed, Migg'ed there are some very clever people who can do that stuff and if it has to be re-tempered for any reason then that can be done also, ceramic bead blasted & re-parked/blued have you asked anyone about the feasibility of doing this sometimes it is cheaper that buying a piece just trying to give you different options.
That's good if they will take a return.:thup:
It looks good, but we need a picture of the welds on the top. The majority of the Repos only have one weld, and tend to look a little deformed. It should have three welds ob top.
simple test: with screw and swivel out pinch the two open ends together, it they spring back to full form it is real. Real bands were made from spring steel, repros are not and when pinched will not spring back to full form.
3 welds although they look smaller than the original welds. Originals are very light, undefined, and "smeared". Will post pics later. A minor prob with my photo program currently.Quote:
Originally Posted by imarangemaster
Springs back but I am still concerned about the edge profile being flat and not round like the known originals I have seen. Does anyone know if the original bands had that flat edge profile?Quote:
Originally Posted by cali201
First, there are original bands with smaller, more pronounced spot welds. There are also fakes with smeary, undefined welds on top that are among the hardest to tell from the originals at first glance. As far as the out edge being rounded versus flat, I took out a known fake from my desk drawer (good to have fakes nearby) and the edge is straight, but so are some of the ones on my carbines that I know are original. One has to remember that there were multiple manufacturers of type one, two and three bands and that meant there were some subtle and maybe not so subtle differences. Sorry I couldn't be more help. I also wish you other band wasn't broken.Quote:
Originally Posted by HDSledge
Here's one we never really figured out.......... with plenty of pictures!
https://www.milsurps.com/showthread.php?t=45018
From the angle that the bands are photographed I can't tell the sort of finish that they are Parked or Blue but one tip that I was told is if it's blue it should/tended to be a dullish blue if original. If it's a really shiny blue it's more likely to be a reproduction. One trick which I used on a U.K. deactivated 1903 Springfield that had a band which was obviously fake because it was far too shiny was to round off the square edges, bead blast it, phosphate it and then re-blue it. It ended up as a dull blue with slightly rounded edges and it then didn't stand out like a sore thumb as repro.
Could you post a pic of one of your original bands that has the flat edge?Quote:
Originally Posted by deldriver
Not going to remove my "Thanks" from Cali's post on Page 1, but I broke my repro Type 1 band (kind that comes in a white box) while squeezing it to see if it had any spring to it. Don't think I'll try this on a real one - maybe just take his word for it! This is a band I bought from Sarco for around $15 to get a swivel for a friend who needed one, and said a repro would do. A couple weeks later, I saw a guy at a local gun show selling these for $10. The screw that came in this one is so close to an original, I'm going to use is to replace a "buggered" one on an old Inland I have.Quote:
Originally Posted by cali201
Here's how I broke it: Squeezed a bit to see what would happen and it felt like it had some temper to it. Next, I squeezed some more (probably to around 1/4" gap) and it made a "crunch" and stayed where it was at - oops! I pulled it back apart and it went back to original, but with a fracture at one of the bends, which appears to be a lot tighter bend than on a real one. I'll attach a few quick pictures to show what this one looks like. It still has some spring to it, and not completely broken in two yet! :D - Bob
I am leaning toward the smooth edge being by design since the sharp edge would not be comfortable in the hand. Pics from deldriver of his original(s) may settle my mind. Need to see more examples of originals with that sharp edge before I install it though.
Another "dead give-away" on the edge of a replacement part to it being a modern copy/fake is if it's been Laser cut and not either punched or a normal smooth stock edge. This is for the simple reason that I don't believe that they had C.N.C. Laser cutting machines during WW2 and immediately Post War. It's easy to be caught out by this and slightly embarrassingly I have myself once or twice since I work in the metalworking industry. Looking carefully at the edge of metal there is a difference between a Laser cut part and a punched part or normal stock edge. The reason that "Fakers" will often use Laser cut parts nowadays is that they don't have to make hard tooling.
Sorry about that, do I need to send you $15 so you can buy another one? No fear of a real one breaking, I have tested all of mine (including a repro or 2). It still is the best and easy way to test for an original, real band. And if it does break it was no good to begin with!! PS: Please excuse any spelling errors, it is tough to type with a cat sitting directly in front of the keyborad and monitor, have to reach around her to type.Quote:
Originally Posted by USGI
Exactly. Can't imagine marketing one like that to begin with. I'd return that one for sure.Quote:
Originally Posted by cali201
Hey Bob my cat used to put her paws up on the keyboard and one day I found her in the office doing a google search. She closed the window before I could get a look at what she was doing though. Probably kitty porn.
Back to the band question: So far no one has definitively named the replacement band as a repro. The edge is the biggest issue for me. Here is the pic with that highlighted. Did any supplier produce a band with that flat edged stock for WWII carbines?
You guys with known unmolested original carbines can solve this one for me. Do any of your prime examples have a sharp edge band around the stock or are they all rounded?
Flying10uk: re. Looking carefully at the edge of metal there is a difference between a Laser cut part and a punched part or normal stock edge.
What can you tell me about the edge on the right?
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo..._barrel_-2.jpg
ps. I love this hobby but hate humpers passing off repro/rebuilt as original. A few months ago I thought a humper was an energetic puppy.
edit: John provided a pic of one of his originals, it has the rounded edge.
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...nal_band-1.jpg
Band on stock is WRA.
Loose one is MR:
Best I can seem to do today on pictures.
I have 7 T1 bands here, all have a bit of a rounded or tapered over edge, not enough as to where they'd be a problem with hook up on the barrel band spring.
None have as hard an edge as the one you have pictured.
Charlie-painter777
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...oxzneolf-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...vnbimmb2-1.jpghttps://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...zwesclmp-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...1nscbq0u-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...0zcoknch-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...hoiidbet-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...ibbgayjv-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...g6c66hei-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...mnetsqxd-1.jpg
Cali, No problem with the broken fake band. I've already recovered the cost in the worth (to me) of the screw and the swivel. Also, worth it to get that tip from you! I'm still not going to try this on an original, though! :D Have an old cat here too, that gets jealous if I give the computer more attention than I do him! Sledge: I've got a Dr. appointment this afternoon, but will try posting pictures of a couple of my originals later this evening. You started a very good thread - and thanks for the pics, Charlie. - Bob
I would say that the outer profile of the band is punched rather than laser cut. With laser cut parts you normally get tiny tell-tail lines running at tangents along the edge where the metal has been cut by the laser beam. Punched metal will normally have a "witness" line running somewhere around the middle of the metal, visible along it's length on the edge. The picture on the right looks as if the part has been shot blasted and/or Parked and so it's difficult to see this punching "witness" mark, however, I think that it is just about visible. It doesn't look laser cut.Quote:
Originally Posted by HDSledge
The inner ring looks as if it's been made from stock material with a slightly rounded edge.
Sledge: I have (4) of the real ones and all are on carbines. It's getting late, and I just got around to taking these pics of an "upside down" U marked band on a 6 digit Inland. The others will be from another early Inland, an S'G' and a Winchester. If I don't get the rest of them tonight, I give it a try tomorrow. So far it looks like "rounded" front and back. I've got a hunch the other Inland and S'G' are both going to look just like this one. The Inland is marked UI and the S'G' is U. - Bob
Here's the pics of the other Inland's front band. The screw on this one is from the fake band (the "broken" one, Cali :wave:) shown in the post on page 2. The S'G' is at the back of the safe, so will get pictures of that one tomorrow. Got the Winchester out and it's an unmarked type 2 (oops!) so get to skip that one. - Bob
Great pics everyone. The replacement band I have is looking less and less like a bonafide part. Also looks like my search for a genuine type one unmarked band may be a long one.
Try Gunbroker they seem to have allot advertised repro's and originals.
I thought that it may be helpful to this discussion to post a few example pictures to illustrate what a laser cut edge looks like. The best way to understand how the laser cutting works is to think of the laser beam as a miniature yet very powerful gas cutting torch controlled by a computer. You will see from my pictures the tiny lines running at tangents to the edge of the metal caused by the laser beam as it moves along the metal. Occasionally "Fakers" may try to remove these marks by grinding/linishing off but more often than not they seem to be left on, for the World to see.
I'm thinking a WTB here might get you one way sooner than you might think...Quote:
Originally Posted by HDSledge
I think I posted one but I will check and if not will do that. Thanks!!Quote:
Originally Posted by browningautorifle
ps. I posted on Dec 1 but have no replies. Don't know of a way to bump it.
btw I do have a legit band with an upside down U stamp but need the unmarked one. Will trade.
Maybe someone following this thread can fix me up. ?
mortardoctor has a few listed right now on ebayyy. real parts.
I'd still like to see the top weld spots on your busted band.
ch-p777
Watching the mortardoctor item and will probably go for it. Will trade it or my other one for a 3 weld band if I can find one. Call me crazy, (more like ocd) but I want to replace with same type of band.Quote:
Originally Posted by painter777
3 spot welds, very light.
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...100_7509-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...100_7508-1.jpg
Here's the pics of my S'G' front band. Found these on my computer, so didn't have to take new ones. All that I've pictured (except the fake) have the 3 faint weld marks. - Bob
One of his is a 3 weld, ends in 7 days.
Have notes about 3 weld bands found on Underwoods where the welds are in a slight triangular pattern. These weld spots are oval in shape.
On SG's, the welds are round and in more of a straight/uniform pattern.
fwiw,
ch-p777
Looks conclusive so far. I think I'll be sending my replacement back for a refund. I appreciate all the pics and information you guys supplied.
Orion could have been fooled by it.
All in the carbine world have been taken at one time.
I remember having a Magcatch in my watch box on GB. Was using the markings as a 'WHAT NOT TO BUY EXAMPLE'.
While laid up from a run in with a horse, my wife used my account and bought it. A FAKE from george!!. Some like JimF may remember this. I didn't have the heart to tell her it was humped.
Worst part was .............. George left feedback something like this.............. ~"Thanks for your continued support" He often trolled the sites and knew I beat on him hard.
Good Luck HD,
Charlie-painter777
I don't think that you can read too much into the appearance of the spot welds which are quite likely to vary from band to band. This is because no 2 set-ups of the spot welding machine in WW2 would have been exactly the same in every respect. During the set-up procedure of the machine there are many variables which can be changed by the person setting up the machine and the welder/setter will have their own preferences and ideas on how best the spot welder should be set. There are also many different styles of electrode used for spot welding but there is always an electrode on each side of the metals to be joined together.
The obvious bottom line is that however the spot welder is set up the resulting joint should be strong and long lasting. The normal practice is to test the set up with some scrap material; weld, then try to break apart and a hole in one piece of metal should result but the weld should not fail.
It's one of the ways they tell real from fake.Quote:
Originally Posted by Flying10uk
No 2 people will set up a spot welder machine exactly the same as each other- there will be variations.
From what I have seen some operators must go so fast that they smear the welds. After all the carbine production was a rush job from the start. I can picture the guy/gal on the line popping them out as fast as they can and neatness be damned just get 'em put together.Quote:
Originally Posted by Flying10uk
You do get lazy spot welders and lazy setters, like everything else in life, who can't be bothered to do their job properly, i.e. set the machine correctly, test the set up and operate the machine correctly.