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I have a 1918 SMLE and a 1945 No4T and shoot them regularly, I have noticed when watching folk shooting similar Enfield rifles, a fascination for fast cycling of the bolt. My rifles operate just fine with a smooth bolt operation. What's the reason for this fast cycling of the bolt when shooting these old weapons?
Is their operation not smooth also? Maybe they like doing it that way...Quote:
Originally Posted by Merlin266
SPEED and plenty of it there were not many bolt guns in the World Wars that could match the Lee Enfield for fire power there was a tale of the Germans at battalion strength advancing on a British held trench in WWI the brits armed with lee enfields and such was the rate of fire power coming from that line they thought there was a machine gun battalion there the advance was halted due to losses by the enemy and volume of fire.
The brittish regulars trained very hard at high rate of accurate fire of course as the war progressed training was not as thorough but good enough.
The first Mad Minute record was set by Sergeant Major Jesse Wallingford in 1908, scoring 36 hits on a 48 inch target at 300 yards (4.5 mils/ 15.3 MOA).[1] Allegedly another world record of 38 hits, all within the 24 inch target at 300 yards (2.25 mils/ 7.6 MOA), is said to have been set in 1914 by Sergeant Instructor Alfred Snoxall,[2] but there is little documentation and it is unsure whether it was actually accomplished or British propaganda. There has been major discussion whether it is actually possible to shoot that fast and accurate with a bolt rifle. Its fun to have a go at we often get a crack at it after one of our shoots I manage @25 rounds depending on meltdowns like misfeeds etc.
THE MAD MINUTE.
The Mad Minute is best known as a bolt-rifle speed shooting event, which was derived from a pre-World War I rapid-fire exercise used by British Army riflemen, using the Lee–Enfield service rifle. The exercise (Practice number 22, Rapid Fire, ‘The Musketry Regulations, Part I, 1909) required the rifleman to fire 15 rounds at a “Second Class Figure” target at 300 yards. The practice was described as; “Lying. Rifle to be loaded and 4 rounds in the magazine before the target appears. Loading to be from the pouch or bandolier by 5 rounds afterwards. One minute allowed”. The practice was only one of the exercises from the annual classification shoot which was used to grade a soldier as a marksman, first-class or second-class shot, depending on the scores he had achieved.
The “Second Class Figure Target” was 48" square (approximately 1.2 x 1.2 meters), with 24” inner (61 cm) and 36” magpie (92 cm) circles. The aiming mark was a 12” x 12” (30 x 30 cm) silhouette figure that represented the outline of the head of a man aiming a rifle from a trench. Points were scored by a hit anywhere on the target. Although a 12” target is often mentioned in connection with the Mad Minute practice, this seems to have been an error originating in Ian Hogg’s book, ‘The Encyclopedia of Weaponry’. No other source mentions a 12" target. Thus according to the myth the target size would have been a 1.11 mil circle (3.82 MOA), while in reality the target size was a 4.5 mil square (15.3 MOA) making the area counting scoring hits over 15 times bigger.
WORLD RECORD.
In the Mad Minute Challenge in Norway in 2015 a standard 200 m DFS target was used, scoring 1 point for every hit inside the black area which is 40 cm in diameter and corresponds to 2 mils at 200 meters (6.9 moa). This actually makes the target size used in the Norwegian event smaller compared to the myth of Alfred Snoxall, who allegedly had all 36 hits inside a 24" circle at 300 yards (2.22 mils/ 7.64 MOA).
A Mad Minute event was held in Soknedal, Norway, on 30 May 2015 featuring some of the best stang shooters in the country. The competition was called the "Mad Minute Challenge"[1], and was shot at a round 40 cm diameter target at 200 meters (2 mils/ 6.9 moa), making the target smaller than original. The winner, Thomas Høgåsseter, scored 36 hits. The average score, of 11 shooters, was 29.
The reasons why the Enfield bolt is so fast is because of the lock up (60 degree instead of the usual 90 degrees), cock on closing, and finally the ergonomics of the bolt (having the bolt handle right by the trigger).
With a P14 I am personally able to do 22rds a minute at 100m on a round black target. The P14 has a 90 degree lock up and isn't as fast and a Enfield. When I gave my buddies Enfield a go I did 24rds without much practice on the Enfield. The way to get these high rates of fire is to always keep your hand on the bolt and to use your middle finger (or in my case my ring finger) to fire the trigger.
These rifles cycle fast so why not do it?
Cinders, those records were beaten in later years, suggest you re read a thread of mine called" Research and Busting the Myth"
Hey Merlin. My trusty old and much loved Norton Commando will do 120mph (on a dark night on the M4) but because it is a grand old lady now, I know she can, she knows she can show her teeth and her Norton growl - and I don't want or need to flog it to death, I just keep it to sensible speeds and might just open it up occasionally. Just like an old No4. To be honest, it doesn't have to prove itself....... in fact it doesn't have to prove anything. Just my take on things
Happy New Year to all! Peter- My '72 5 speed Bonneville will certainly top 100 but by 85 or 90 it already feels like it's revving itself to death. It's one previous owner tells me he used to cruise at 100 but I suspect his speedo was a wee bit generous or his vision distorted by large amounts of cheap beer. Regarding the high speed cycling of Lee Enfields, I see funny movies on youtube where the operator slams the bolt back and forth like a lunatic but then carefully pauses to squeeze the trigger with middle finger strangely cocked. I believe the idea of this middle finger pull is to arrange it such that the trigger is pulled almost automatically as you close the bolt- no pause for aiming. Check out page 92 in the big Skennerton book- shows a device that automated this installed on a MLE carbine. Personally, just as I won't cruise at 100 on my triumph, I won't abuse any of my rifles on the pretext that the gophers on the range are charging me.
Ridolpho
I suppose so, when I used to work on BBMF, I often wondered why the pilots didn't flog the Spitfires. Answer being, for what reason, we know how fast and how tight they can turn. They have nothing to prove. Suppose it's just comes down to personal preference.
My Honda 1984 VF1000R with 11 grand on the tacho the speedo at 250kph I can say this it was noisey and white knuckled......which was pretty fast in 1984 for street legal
Maybe because they're 70 year old aircraft? Very different between an aircraft and a rifle...Quote:
Originally Posted by Merlin266
I have heard it said that the Lee Enfield ejects better when cycled fast. I have had the odd occasion when I open the bolt too slowly that the case does not eject properly. But that's just because I'm being lazy and loosing momentum on the rearward pull.
Personally I have not tried the mad minute and have no interest in doing it. I'm more interested in how accurate the rifle is. I see no reason to beat it up with a mad minute (plus it's a lot of reloading)
I'm currently working on our local service rifle club to offer an annual Mad Minute event. The Lee-Enfields were solidly made battle rifles designed to withstand vigorous use and even 70+ years later that's still true. Obviously there's no reason to flog them regularly but sometimes it's nice to open up and see what they can do.
We have exposures that have you getting off 2 rapid rounds 6 sec x 5 sec or maybe a single at 3 sec x 5 sec or a 15 round 4 minute 3 positional one at 100M on very rare occasions someone will want to have a go so volunteers are asked so we get up there and have a go.
Or more likely, the Spitfires are 70+ year old 'geriatrics'. Why risk overstressing an airframe just to show how fast and furious you can fly?Quote:
Originally Posted by Merlin266
I remember reading in Douglas Bader's biography, Reach for the Sky, that he forbade his pilots doing victory loops after witnessing a pilot die after having the tail section of his Spitfire come off whilst doing one after returning from a combat sortie. Mind you, I could be mistaken about the source as I read the book some 50 years ago.
No your correct Paul as they did not know what battle damage may have occurred to the aircraft in combat and the extra strain may cause control wires damaged to snap or even bigger stuff to fail, could replace a Spitfire fairly quickly to train a fighter pilot took a year+ even then some did not survive their first sortie against a war hardened Luftwaffe.
I'd be inclined to think that the vigorous cycleing is in response to the cock on closing resistance and clean ejection afforded by rapid bolt lift and pull.
We currently have a rapid fire event where you've got 15 seconds to get off as many rounds as you can, but realistically it's just "empty the magazine into the target".Quote:
Originally Posted by CINDERS
That would be 11 rounds with a 10 rounder (10 plus 1 up the pipe) and if you have a rare 20 round mag then 16-18 could be possible never seen in the flesh 20 rounder a friend had one but he sold it before I could get my mitts onto it Dang it.
You could sew one up for yourself, use a pair of mags tack welded together. A steel saw and a wire feed welder and you're good...Quote:
Originally Posted by CINDERS
Our club record is 12 rounds in 15 seconds - 10 round magazine fired off, a single charger reload and another two rounds away before the buzzer sounded.Quote:
Originally Posted by CINDERS
Magazine capacities are restricted to 10 rounds in most parts of Australia. A recognised collector could get away with having an original 20 round mag, but a bodgied up hi-cap could get the maker/user in trouble with the authorities.Quote:
Originally Posted by browningautorifle
Guess I should have known that, we have similar but not with a bolt action...Quote:
Originally Posted by Colonel Enfield
We have to keep pace with the Mausers on our shoots (Mad Minute excluded) load only 5 rounds at a time to level the playing field.....
You also have to remember the whole point in the Mad Minute is to get as many accurate rounds down range as possible, not just rounds down range. Generally speaking with the sling tight and your body in the prone the rifle doesn't move much, but you still have to snap shoot on target. It is better to take a extra faction of a second and hit the target than to waste the round as that round lost was meaningless and will seriously effect your score.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ridolpho
The use of the sling is forbidden in the Mad Minute and any other SR"a" event of the period.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eaglelord17
Quote: (Bisley Bible 1957)
The sling (if any) may not be used as an assistance for steadying the rifle.
That's Bisley though, is it the way it was actually preformed? Looking at the 1909 regulations it doesn't state slings were used, however it doesn't expressly forbid them as well. Having done several mad minutes, if you don't have a sling no way are you getting to the numbers that are claimed. With a sling it is hard enough, without you might as well not even bother.Quote:
Originally Posted by Strangely Brown
In those days the army and Bisley were inseparable when it came to competitive shooting. I suspect away from the UK in the wider commonwealth other practises probably took place?Quote:
Originally Posted by Eaglelord17
It requires the sh1t to hit the fan to change what is acceptable in weapon handling; I recall a couple of months before my regiments first tour in Northern Ireland (1973) we were being taught to fire the SLR (L1A1) standing by holding the base of the magazine in the same manner you would hold and fire a Schuetzen rifle.
When the tour was over and the regiment was getting ready for the next tour that method of holding and firing the weapon was forbidden.
Could that be it may have pushed the mag a bit further into the mag well causing mis-feeding or jamming the bolt into the rear feed lips just a question. TIA
I doubt it, they used it as a standard position. We had advocates for the same position and there were no adverse effects.Quote:
Originally Posted by CINDERS