SMLE III (No. 1 Mk. 3) Lee Enfield

Hi all,

I just bought a my second ever Lee Enfield (the other was a nice Ishapore 2A1 which sold years ago), a true SMLE III (No. 1 Mk. 3 no star). It is a 1912 BSA. I haven't received the rifle yet, however based on the photos of the ad, I was wondering if I could get a early critique of what I bought. Don't worry I will have photos when I get it.

I don't dare call myself a expert on Enfields, however I would say I have enough knowledge to be dangerous :D

From what I can tell, this rifle has most the early features, having the magazine cut-off, adjustable rear sight, and piling swivel. It is lacking the volley sights, however the locations for them is there. From what I could tell on the receiver it was released from service, then brought back in as evidenced by the crossed out arrow markings. The nose cap is likely a replacement from refurbishment, as it is unnumbered.

Here is the link to the rifle in question

Lee-Enfield NO 1 MK III (BSA)

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Originally Posted by Eaglelord17

it was released from service, then brought back in

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That's interesting. That's the first I've seen like that. I'd have never thought it would be done.

I suspect it was during WWII, as they were trying to scrounge up any firearm they could for the war effort (especially after Dunkirk). I mean when your arming your homeguard with everything from shotguns to single shot Martini-Henrys to Rosses, a just released from service SMLE would be a very good find.

I think Australian's and New Zealand's did much the same thing with serviceable Gun Club Enfield's being requisitioned for war service.

I've often wondered if any ever made it back to their owners post war..

Stands to reason we in the UK did the same thing. Looking forward to the pics of your rifle Eaglelord when you get her.

That is a pretty cool thing that the sold out of service has been crossed out and it re-entered service, you can scrounge the volley sight stuff but they are getting a tad expensive nice looking rifle have to let us all know how it shoots

I'm not sure about the forend. It doesn't have the "belly" under it in the area of the dial - looks like a straight line from the mid band to the trigger guard. The inletting for the rear sight arm is rough. There were repro forends similar to this available not too long ago.

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Originally Posted by Steve H. in N.Y.

There were repro forends similar to this available not too long ago.

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Where, who made those?

There were some on Ebay. Numrich may have had them also, can't remember exactly.

https://www.milsurps.com/showthread.php?t=39750

Yes, I see that one but I take it to be a re-tread. I wondered if perhaps Boyd had started...

Numrich used to offer repro fore-end with dial sight base inletted in. Close, looked to be converted from III*.

The rear sight protector is not the early pattern, also possibly replaced during refurbishment.

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Originally Posted by Maxwell Smart

Close, looked to be converted from III*.

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They were new made? Or just converted?

Good stuff, I guess we shall find out about the stock when it comes in. I don't normally deal in Enfields so this is a good opportunity to learn. Hopefully it is original, I wasn't intending on buying a restored sporter.

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Originally Posted by Eaglelord17

Hopefully it is original

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Looking forward to seeing it then...

I think someone has "rather enthusiastically" sanded the woodwork, it looks like it would benefit from a light red scotchbrite, a colour treatment and a really good Raw Linseed Oil treatment.

1911 BSA with cancelled sale mark
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...ceiverSN-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...kIIImain-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...MkIIILHS-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...11Vollys-1.jpg


Aussie Naval markings on the butt
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...SAMkIII8-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...SAMkIII7-1.jpg


Not as clear as my first photo but shows the cancelled sale mark on the barrel as well
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...SAMkIII1-1.jpg

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mrclark303

I think Australian's and New Zealand's did much the same thing with serviceable Gun Club Enfield's being requisitioned for war service.

I've often wondered if any ever made it back to their owners post war..

Stands to reason we in the UK did the same thing. Looking forward to the pics of your rifle Eaglelord when you get her.

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I have a sporter MLE with the owners name & address stamped (neatly) on the butt, suspect it might have stamped by the owner so he got it back from the Home Guard which appears to have happened as the rifle was sold on by a relative of the guy.
Will post a photo later when i get home from work

That is a beautiful BSA, definitely jealous!

I saved the photos to my computer and tried zooming in more, I think I can see the indent in the stock where the pointer would sit for the forward volley sight (the repro doesn't seem to have it), however I will have to wait until it arrives to give the final analysis. Apparently according to the shipping tracker it might even arrive today!

It arrived hurray! The bore is actually in much better shape than I thought it would be. I will be sure to get more photos tomorrow (and better quality ones), but I need to eat and go to work now.

I think the stock is original, it does have the proper cut-out for the volley sight pointer, and the volley sight plate is pitted (see photo). I do also think it was sanded, but I am not the best at identifying that type of thing. Bolt matches the rifle which is awesome, and it is smooth. Definitely going to have to do a mad minute with this at some point!

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...6poryhvf-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...i9if0osz-1.jpg

The volley sight recess looks like a recent addition.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by 5thBatt

I have a sporter MLE with the owners name & address stamped (neatly) on the butt, suspect it might have stamped by the owner so he got it back from the Home Guard which appears to have happened as the rifle was sold on by a relative of the guy.
Will post a photo later when i get home from work

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I look forward to it. Your BSA is beautiful example too!

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...3_170422-1.jpg

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Originally Posted by 5thBatt

1911 BSA

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Nice rifle, once again.

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Originally Posted by Homer

The volley sight recess looks like a recent addition.

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I agree, it doesn't look quite right. (The second gun)

I would have to agree, it doesn't look quite right (you can never tell from only looking at pictures of course) but I would guess it is the original, just heavily sanded and the plate fitted out of alignment??

Some careful reworking to the woodwork would make a huge improvement and have her shipshape again.

Sorry to sound negative eaglelord, but its all fixable with a bit of enjoyable work and you get to put your own stamp on her too :thup:

I love the stamping on the buttstock 5th.

i'm fairly sure I've been to Upokongaro and the Wanganiu area, for me, was the scene of one of the most memorable firsts of a young mans life. :D

Don't worry I am not concerned with the judgment on it, half the reason I asked was because I know it isn't a sterling example and I want to know what is wrong with it. In fact I am a bit happy it isn't a sterling example as I can shoot it without worry. Another plus is that this only cost me a K31 (ok slightly more than what I got out of my K31) so in that regard I am far ahead in terms of value for this rifle.

So the good news, the bolt, barrel, receiver and sights match. The stock I do believe is a No. 1 Mk. 3 stock as it has the cut-out for the magazine cut-off and the volley sights, it is just heavily sanded. There was also very few markings on the forestock however those few I found (took photos) aren't something a reproduction is going to try and duplicate. It is exceptionally smooth, and it is going to be a blast once I get it shooting (hopefully this weekend).

Its funny you mention putting your own marking on it, as when I looked around the barrel knox (I believe that is the correct term), it appears everyone in the peacetime pre-WWI army placed there markings there (ridiculous number of proofs). I do have a question about that heart marking with a 'P' inside it, does anyone know what that one means?

Overall I am happy with this addition to my WWI collection, now does anyone know where I could get a original pointer and rear aperture for the volley sights?

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...77eihlj6-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...o0ig9gmt-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...1e70gk7y-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...ic2vntax-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...wyhoprjv-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...objj4feh-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...ivx7flap-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...jxtebipi-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...yfijhvkg-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...ngxqqhpd-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...2dvk1wvx-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...mydwx7fh-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...jepbv6co-1.jpg

Apologies for the slightly confusing order, however I am done fighting with photo bucket today (also apologies for the photos being turned around, they were right side up when I tried to upload them).

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Originally Posted by Eaglelord17

that heart marking with a 'P' inside it, does anyone know what that one means?

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https://www.milsurps.com/showthread.php?t=58777 Check this thread out for the Heart info.

You have yourself a well travelled rifle there, you can read the social history of the early 20th century from those markings! We have England to Australia to the US and finally over the boarder to Canada!

Nice looking rifle, it will come up very well indeed..

I understand the British markings (the Broad arrow in particular), and I understand the England marking generally meant it went to America, but what makes you say Australia? What I was getting from that thread was that the 'P' with a heart around it meant a parallel bore, which was a rifling test by the UK to see what type of rifling preformed the best. Is it possibly another marking saying that, or was I misreading that information?

Eaglelord: the stars with numbers are Lithgow inspection markings. The italic B's are BSA views. Confusing as there are both BSA and Lithgow view marks on both barrel and receiver. There also appears to be a second (non-commercial) proof above the GR proof on the barrel but can't really make it out. The matching 413's are in an unusual location with no visible ground off number in the usual spot. It will be interesting to hear how everyone interprets all this.

Ridolpho

I doubt this was a volley sight forend originally. Looks like the recesses were added in more recent times.

Australian made barrel, and also have my doubts about the fore-end.

Photo 5 of post #25 doesn't seem to show the right shapes around the dial plate inletting.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Maxwell Smart

Australian made barrel, and also have my doubts about the fore-end.

Photo 5 of post #25 doesn't seem to show the right shapes around the dial plate inletting.

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Not a Lithgow barrel, it is 1912 dated BSA barrel with additional Lithgow inspection stamps, the barrel & receiver on mine are similarly marked (Photobucket is under maintenance at the mo, so no photos yet) mine does not have the additional numbers below the woodwork but the other than that & the commercial proof & the P in a heart, its a pretty much the same.
The forend is modified for Volley sights as the D with the small line proves as that a imposed EFD mark which dates long after 1912.

---------- Post added at 11:18 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:13 AM ----------

Quote:

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Originally Posted by henry r

I love the stamping on the buttstock 5th.

i'm fairly sure I've been to Upokongaro and the Wanganiu area, for me, was the scene of one of the most memorable firsts of a young mans life. :D

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I am in Wanganui (now spelt Whanganui due to PC crap) so the rifle has not travelled too far.
Who was that, i might know her??? lol

I am suspecting it is a restored sporter at the moment, which wasn't what I thought I was buying. On the other side, it is a great candidate for it as it is matching bolt, receiver, barrel, and sights. Definitely going to have to look into my options to get it as close to how it was in WWI, as that is what I want it to represent.

Markings on mine
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...4_103641-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...4_103720-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...4_103842-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...4_103824-1.jpg

Wow, once the stock is off yours and mine are very close to each others in terms of markings. Very interesting, I wonder what the story behind the Lithgow markings being added was.

I figured out where the fore end came from...

Forestock, Walnut, Inletted for Long Range Volley Sights Gun Parts | 1288970 | Numrich Gun Parts

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Originally Posted by Eaglelord17

Wow, once the stock is off yours and mine are very close to each others in terms of markings. Very interesting, I wonder what the story behind the Lithgow markings being added was.

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The Brits returned the same Number of rifles that Australia had given them at the beginning of WW1. It could have returned from WW2 with an Aussie soldier. Either way it would have gone back through Lithgow. My thoughts are WW1 return.

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Originally Posted by Eaglelord17

I figured out where the fore end came from.

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That doesn't surprise me, about what we were figuring too...but it's fine.

I ordered a reproduction volley sight set to fit into my reproduction stock. In any case it will allow me to practice my mad minute with the proper rifle. Hopefully tomorrow I will be able to see how it shoots, and maybe attempt a mad minute if it is all working proper. I figure if I can do 22rds with the P14, my goal should be at least 30rds a min with the No. 1 Mk. 3

Quote:

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Originally Posted by 5thBatt

I am in Wanganui (now spelt Whanganui due to PC crap) so the rifle has not travelled too far.
Who was that, i might know her??? lol

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they seriously changed the name???? what is the world coming to.

she was an Australian girl, we were both there at the same time (at the scout camp, but you can't really say you lost your virginity at a scout camp without some bad jokes being made :D ) .
even if she was a local there is no way i'd put a name on the internet... could you imagine googling your wife (or mothers) name and reading that story... :eek: :ugh:

I got the rifle out shooting today, and I am now very happy with it again. It might not be all correct but it functions beautifully. After sighting in the rifle, I did a quick attempt at a mad minute. Found out that just like the P14, the Lee Enfield needs the longer bullets to function properly (I was using .310 123grn pulled 7.62x39 bullets). That being said, the bore is VG on this rifle, and it has no problem with the .310 bullets (unlike some Lee Enfields). Even the brass is coming out not misshapen like what is so common on most Lee Enfields, I guess this rifle missed having its chamber enlarged.

I am going to have to buy some larger bullets for proper mad minute practice, however for the moment, I am fairly happy. Things I also noted was if the magazine cut-off comes on even slightly it can cause the right hand side round to be unable to be picked up by the bolt, and the charger guide on this rifle doesn't kick out the chargers when I close the bolt, so they will have to manually be removed. At least I have a good idea for the areas I need to pay attention to for practicing the drill.

Here is the shooting. The spread out stuff was the mad minute attempt, the tighter groupings was me figuring out where to aim.

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...b14jq6gt-1.jpg

Try some pulled 7.62X54 bullets...if you can. Anyway, looks fine. Wonder what's with the charger guide hogging clips?

Maybe it could be the clips I have, they were pretty crappy when I got them and had to use some sandpaper on the insides just to get a round in, let alone feed from them (I believe they are Italian and parkerized). Might just be the rifle though, they do seem to sit lower than the P14, maybe cut too deep from the factory.

I wish there was a good source of pulled 7.62x54r bullets as I find those 150grn steel core bullets feed and shoot excellently out of my P14, and I am sure they would do the same for this rifle. I just hate manually pulling them myself (I have a kinetic hammer).

Invest in a collet type puller E L once you get them set up correctly they are fast powder stays in the case there is insignificant marking done to the projectile but I do stress practice with it I had a few fails before I found the right spot as I said they are very quick they have caliber specific collets I have 2 a 6.5mm & 30 cal, plus the kinetics work but they can be slow & messy.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Eaglelord17

had to use some sandpaper on the insides just to get a round in

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That may well be it. The Greek black ones were harsh to use.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Eaglelord17

I wish there was a good source of pulled 7.62x54r bullets

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Try Budget Shooter Supply in Vancouver area... PRVI 303 (.311) 150gr FMJBT 100/Bag