Looking to buy a Danish 1867/96 Rolling Block

I have a rifle being shipped in from Utah. At this stage I'm not obligated to buy it, just have to pay for the shipping. From what I can see in the photos, it's in pretty nice shape. Only drawback and it isn't a big one for me is that the finish is thin. Stock looks great, normal dings, etc but the cartouches are all present and serial matches the barrel. Bore was described as shiny with strong grooves. The photos are very clear and I can examine basically the whole rifle minus a few small areas like the top of the butt stock but it was confirmed by the seller that the cartouche is present there.

I have no experience with rolling blocks but they look pretty simple. Anything in particular that I need to look at before finalizing the purchase? Unusual breakage areas, etc? It has the conversion to shoot centerfire or rimfire. Supposed to be in original caliber but have been told some were reamed for 45-70.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Aragorn243

Anything in particular that I need to look at before finalizing the purchase? Unusual breakage areas, etc?

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The 1867/96 was the rimfire to centerfire conversion of the original RBs. Your rifle should have a crown on the top of the barrel, between the rear sight and the receiver. This was added when the centerfire conversion was made. Check carefully what the chambering is now.

For shooting, it is important that the face of the block is square to the bore axis - and remains so after the shot has been fired!

Check that no live cartridge is in the chamber. Cock the rifle and check that the block face is square to the bore axis. Now any mechanical system must have some play, however small, in order to function. And then wears as it gets older. The weakness of a worn RB is that this can mean that the block face is no longer square to the bore axis after firing. Get a (preferably brass) rod about a yard long that will slide down the barrel. "Fire" the rifle, so that the hammer moves fully forwards and locks the block. Insert the rod into the barrel and push it down very firmly. The block will appear to move back slightly, but since it is on a pin it will actually rotate a little. And if pin/block wear is excessive, the block face, no longer being square to the bore axis, will cause the base of the fired case to be slightly skewed. Basically, if you can see that it is no longer square to the bore, then you have a problem, as every time the case is fired the base will be distorted again.

Assuming that the distortion is small enough that it does not present a safety problem, the simple answer is to mark the cases so that they are always inserted with the same orientation, so that any slight skew remains constant and does not cause a repeated reworking of the base area. And do not fully calibrate the cases either! Treat all old BP rifles as individuals, forget about modern notions of headspace, and regard the first firing as a fire-forming to make the cases fit that rifle. For subsequent firings use neck-sizing only. OK, so the case has no neck - you simply screw out the sizer half a turn.

Best of all, if the chamber/bore dimensions allow it, is to use lead bullets with about 5% tin added and a diameter that allows them to be seated without resizing the case at all. This is a single-shot rifle, so neck tension can be very light - a finger-and-thumb push fit is enough - as the sheer inertia of the heavy bullet (weight somewhere around 400-520 gns) ensures adequate case expansion, and the 5% tin alloy is soft enough to slug up to fit the bore, even if it is noticeably worn. Some experimentation will be required to find the best match.

But...
Do NOT use nitro propellants.
Do NOT use jacketed bullets.

Both of these will send pressures up to potentially dangerous levels. And put together they will endanger your life. You are firing a barrel that was intended for BP pressures when it was new, and it is now 150 years old!

And to anyone who now writes in saying that he uses nitro and his RB hasn't failed, I can only add the word ... yet.

Here are the photos I have access too:

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...b5x58png-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...pjulipng-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...scenbpng-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...5b8smpng-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...dljmwpng-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...ovpa8png-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...lbw8cpng-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...lxzkhpng-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...2mb2jpng-1.jpg

That is a nice looking Danish R-B. I think the rear barrel-band may be on 'backwards'. The Danish Crown should be on the left-side, when the barrel-bands are installed.

I am not sure what you mean by "Stock Cartouche"? (I don't recall my Danish stock having one, when I owned and fired one).

The Danish cartridge is slightly larger in diameter than the .45-70 cartridge case. It is common for Danish chambers to be able accept .45-70 Factory ammo. (But, Don't Shoot These - Cases Will Split)!

If .45-70 brass is to be used, it should be 'fire formed' to the Danish chamber, using low pressure loads. IIRC - In some Danish R-B rifles, .45-70 cases may need to be slightly shortened.

FWIW - (I used 'once fired' .45-70 brass, without reforming it. I used pure cast-lead, 405 grain - .459" diameter projectiles, with 'smokeless' loads considered safe for the 'trap-door' Springfield.

I lightly crimped the bullets at the case mouth, by slightly pressing the case & bullet into the base of a .30-06 Sizing Die on my Press. 50 and 100 yard accuracy was good. I did not have to shorten cases for a proper fit. Dies were not necessary to reload).

Not big cartouches, just two small crowns and then a slightly larger "something" on the top of the butt stock. I believe the fellow said it looked like a double C or GC of some sort. It's the one I can't see in the photos. I have seen photos of other rifles with this mark, looks like GC to me in a small rectangle.

Nice looking rifle, there appears to be traces of case coloring on the reciever.

It looks more like grease or age patina in zoomed photos. I can't get zoomed photos off their site, had a hard time getting these.

That looks like a very nice Roller! The backsight is correctly mounted, even if it looks a bit odd. See Layman, Remington Rolling Block Military Rifles of the World, pp71-73. And yes, the middle band does seem to be reversed. Butlersrangers has made the correct comments about ammo. And the receiver is not color-case-hardened. What you see is patina from handling.

If the bore is OK and there is no nasty slop in the action from worn pins (see my previous post), then you may well have a keeper.

It is the 'rear' barrel-band that is reversed. The 'middle' band has a 'flanged screw' on the left-side, that serves as a 'Blade' for long range 'Volley Fire'.

It is a nice Danish Rolling-Block. Don't mess with the finish of wood and metal.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by butlersrangers

It is the 'rear' barrel-band that is reversed. The 'middle' band has a 'flanged screw' on the left-side, that serves as a 'Blade' for long range 'Volley Fire'...

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Thanks BR. Any idea what the volley range was? I didn't find the volley sight mentioned in the book. Would you care to inform the author, so that any future edition can be that bit better?

'Patrick' - I no longer have a Danish R-B to directly refer to. But, IIRC, the 'Volley' graduations or distances are simply visible on the 'Leaf', when it is in the vertical position.

The rear 'Volley' sight is the off-set lobe on the elevation slide, that extends to the left of the leaf.

The front 'Volley' sight is the 'flanged-screw' head, that projects from the left of the middle barrel-band.

I have Geoge Layman's earlier work, "The Military Remington Rolling Block Rifle", 3rd edition. On page 35, Layman mentions about the M1867: " ... a longer than usual ladder-type rear sight with a secondary sight notch on the left side used for long-range fire". (So, George Layman is aware of this feature).

I've borrowed and edited two of the OP's pictures:
Attachment 79867Attachment 79868

Got the phone call, the rifle is in Delaware. Going Saturday to look at it.

Just back from the Delaware Cabelas. Turned out to be well represented by the photos, that's the rifle. Bore looks good, needs a pad run through it but it's bright with strong rifling. The very edges of the lands are slightly rounded so it's been fired, not bad but the sharp corners aren't there anymore. What looks like pitting on the underside the receiver is just a little surface rust that will probably come right off.

I did Patrick's breech block test and I can't even really detect it moving at all. The firing pin mechanism and trigger back up a bit but if the block is moving, it's very slight. It does have a tiny bit of side to side play when you move it by hand that way. Their selling price was $849.00 which seemed fair. What made it advantageous to me is that I had points and I walked out the door with it for less than $20.00.

Wow,
Proof one can type and smile at the same time :D
I was really impressed with the stock, has some tiger stripe under the action.
As nice as the pictures were, I am sure it looks/feels even better in hand.
Super deal for you.............. As you know!
Curious if it has the boxed GC on the comb?

By far the best I seen out of 3 yesterday.

Curious as to how far a drive for you?
Every time I've had to road trip for a purchase.......... its like I'll never get there no matter how far. Enjoy and Thanks for letting us feel like part of it.

Cheers,
Charlie-Painter777

It does have the boxed GC on the comb but I understand why they told me it was CC. The G isn't real clear. I'll see if it clears up when I wipe it down with some oil. There is a little "dirt" on the stock but not a lot.

I live between two Cabela's. The one in Pennsylvania is closer at 40 minutes. The one in Delaware is about 70 minutes but no sales tax in Delaware although a bit more of a pain to purchase as they have never seen to have heard about the ATF list of exempt or antique firearms. It would take "research" to determine if paperwork wasn't needed and that would take "more time" than doing the paperwork. It is my understanding that the Feds don't take kindly to putting antiques on the books but I didn't press the issue, they don't charge for the background check. System was slow today, had to wait about half an hour which was probably longer than the "research" would have taken.

Any ideas on what kind of sling to put on it?

I just ran a Google search:
Sling for Rolling Block Rifle Danish Model 1867/96

Found a few pictures in some completed auctions.
This link has a few (sold) that show leather slings:

Collectors Firearms Archives - Home

Same site from above showing more down the page:
Collectors Firearms Archives - Home


That google search will pull up a few that sold on Gun auction.com, heres one that had a sling: http://www.gunauction.com/buy/13861126

I don't know if these slings are correct. But after seeing the sale prices on some of these I can say........ You stole that RB !


HTH.... I'm sure someone will come along and toss in the needed help.

Congrats
Charlie-Painter777

I have a spare Swedish older style sling I put on it for now. One of the rifles I could find photos of that had a sling had one of these on. Probably not correct but I read that it has been speculated that the Danes took all the slings off when they put the rifles in storage and later destroyed them. Most photos show a sling with a square sliding brass buckle similar to a Spanish Mauser sling but even those aren't confirmed as being correct.

What about a Bayonet?
Are they hard to find?

Would Swedish Socket Bayonets work?
Ask because I came across 2 swedish bayos while looking for slings today.

Could pass along link if needed/interested.

Charlie

Bayonets are not that hard, I just have to be patient. I had one all lined up but missed it by 2 minutes getting back from picking up the rifle. They are specific to the Danish rifle.

Here is a photo of a Danish Soldier with a Rolling-Block. Unfortunately, the sling is not shown in very good detail.
Attachment 80038

FWIW - I have a photo of Danish soldiers armed with Krags.

Their slings appear to look similar U.S. Civil War Slings.

The Slings appear to fold back on themselves, through the upper swivel, and adjust with a central metal hook or device, that 'hooks' into positioned holes in the center of the sling.

The other end of the sling folds through the 'guard-swivel' and buttons over a stud.

(A repro. C.W. sling, with one hole for 'taught' sling and one hole for 'carry', would look good).

What are the odds. Today I found an Argentine Rolling block that looks almost new. I understand these were refinished but have not seen one that has a case hardened receiver. I'm kind of torn because at $200 less than the Danish it seems an excellent price but it's almost the same as the Danish in everything but the caliber. Going to think on it a few days. Big gun show coming up in two weeks I was hoping to find something at so in no rush to spend my gun money. No points for this one.

Hard to believe it could be in better condition than the Danish RB.
Sorta hurts using up the points, doesn't it?
Did you locate the Argentine via the same 'Franchise'

Good Luck,
Charlie

No, this one is not a Cabelas rifle. I'm probably going to wait until after the big gun show. If it's still there I'll think about it some more. It's probably a good deal but I don't really need another one as an example of the type.

Sounds like a pretty good problem to have. Win, win either way you go .Beautiful rolling block.

Would it be worth grabbing as swap fodder?

I'm not sure how things work with rifle collectors but with one of my other hobbies 1/4 to 1/3 of all the interesting things i aquired over the last 10 years were from swapping other interesting bits (often bought when they came up at a decent price for just that purpose).

I wouldn't say the price is low enough for that. A lot of cash to just be sitting on waiting for the right trade. It's a good deal but pretty much only for someone that wants one.

Fate stepped square into my path yesterday. After reading about the two rolling blocks you were mulling over and thinking that it would be nice to have one, what to my wondering eyes would appear. A Remington No 1 rolling block. No caliber/ military markings. The back of the chamber measures .523 & it is .438 at the muzzle. Any thoughts on caliber? 43 Spanish?
Thanks for inspiring me to pick one up. I will try & post a photo tomarrow.

I don't know very much about them. Learned everything I know in researching the Danish rifle. I know they made a lot of civilian rifles so could be one of them. Could be a 45-70 which would make it easy to shoot. Argentines and Danish are marked. I believe US rifles are marked also.

The only markings are on the tang. Remington & several patient dates along with a 4 digit serial number on the receiver and B were the barrel meets the receiver at the wood line. I cannot seem to find a photo of one like this as most have three barrel bands. Seems like a commercial version.Photo stinks Ill try to get some better ones.

Does it have a provision for a cleaning rod or a bayonet lug?

Looks like a full length rifle. Looking online, most 2 bands are short rifles. Interesting.

No bayo lug but does have provision for the cleaning rod. No obvious signs on the stock or barrel of previous presence of an intermediate barrel band.35" barrel breach to end of barrel. 50 1/2 " OAL. I have so better photos I will post.

A couple of photos.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by HOOKED ON HISTORY

The back of the chamber measures .523 & it is .438 at the muzzle. Any thoughts on caliber? 43 Spanish?

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.43 Spanish is most likely. However, many old Mexican and South American RBs became so worn that they were often rejigged to "Spanish Reformado". If you look up details on this chambering, the information is a bit confusing. It seems to have been a fudge to extend the working life of worn-out rifles. I would seriously recommend a chamber casting before, for instance, investing in reloading dies.

BTW: Is it perhaps a 3-band rifle that lost its middle band a long time ago? I seem to see the shadow of a soft step in the wood where a middle band would have been located.

I see that now also now that Patrick mentioned it. Shouldn't if have the holding spring?

No springs (indication of a civilian or early rifle?) but closer examination of the stock does indeed indicate the presence of a middle band at some time in the distant past.

I have a soft spot for Rolling Blocks. In fact I have 12 of them from 7X57 Mauser to 50/70 Govt. and I shoot all of them. I don't have a Danish (yet) but have several Swedish RBs.
Enjoy your rifle.

Bayonet came a couple of days ago. I was a bit disappointed in the condition but it cleaned up to an acceptable level. He gave decent photos but they didn't show the extent of the pitting. I got a good deal on it so can't complain. Had a heck of a time getting it to fit. Needed the channel cleaned out and every little ding needed to be filed down. It now goes on and off but not without the assistance of a wooden block. Kind of hard getting used to the side mounts and this thing is almost an actual sword.