New Acquisition: S&W Victory Model .38 Special!

Many here that frequent the M1 Carbine forum know that my dad used an Inland M1 Carbine on Iwo Jima in 1945. He was with the advance party of the 142 Army Garrison force, and landed on the island on D-Day +5. He was there the night of "the Big Banzai Charge".

Something I never mentioned before (mainly because this is an M1 carbine forum) is that he also carried a S&W Victory Model .38 Special. As a senior NCO, he had access to a 1911A1, but said he couldn't hit anything with the 45. He like the 38 revolver though, and felt he could hit what he aimed at with it. I know he used the carbine the night of the Banzai charge (he said it never let him down), but I don't know if he also used the revolver.

Today I finally I am acquiring a 4" martial marked Victory Model, .38 Special like my dad carried. I won it on Gunbroker, and can't wait to get it. This will go with my Inland and all my dad's WW2 stuff to honor him, my uncles, and all of that greatest generation.

I too have trouble hitting with the .45, seems to be a common complaint. It takes practice. The revolver on the other hand I can DA correctly and hit what I want. We'll be watching for pics and range report...

I had originally posted this on the M1 Carbine forum, as part of a discussion about what my dad carried along with his M1 carbine on Iwo Jima. I was finally (and correctly so) locked, as it drifted too far from the Carbine appropriate topic. There are some good pictures and information there.

https://www.milsurps.com/showthread.php?t=59526

A Smith and Wesson collector contacted me and pointed out that the cylinder had been replaced, possibly with a non-Victory cylinder. I was aware of it, because the seller clearly stated it in the auction. I wasn't worried, though, as I was a police and military armorer. I planned on checking headspace and lock up prior to shooting it. I can also pick up a Victory cylinder for it, if I need to. I have an original lanyard ring on the way as we speak.

Some photos from the auction:

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...aukukusp-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...grskgoef-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...xmktooxy-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...m27st7us-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...uwanfse9-1.jpg

The old girl isn't "Collector grade" by any means, but for $300, I am not complaining - especially if it still shoots! LOL. I like military weapons with honest wear that show real usage. It is part of their History, and says to me..."Been there, done that!"

Nice patina, whilst I had a few mags from a 45ACP 1911 I never did much good with it but went well with my S&W 357 Mags L framed one for service shoots the other for action match I could also occasionally hit the target with my Ruger Super Redhawk 44 Mag with factory ammo but what the heck it was just a fun gun only shot H/G's for 2 years then the political sphere within the club manifested itself and I pulled the pin along with my to be wife.

Sorry for a hijack but here is a story ~ My wife was junior state champion at air pistol infact she is a very accomplished shooter as I never run in a straight line! anyway my wife was shooting air pistol at a club shoot I had shot the usual crud as I liked to watch the pellets flight with the resultant useless score. Anyway this new member and just joining the committee (I was on it as well) came up to my fiance and said that her score would be invalidated.
She turned to him after her shot inquiring why this was so to which he replied that her stretch fit jeans were supporting her so before he could go any further she retorted well what do you want me to do take them off, she would have done that.
He went bright red and walked away when I was told I said thank goodness I was not in earshot or his ears would have been at the 10M target he was such a tosser that it spurred our decision to quit the club it was sad really as I liked doing the plates and the moover

I feel your pain! I shot Cowboy Action Shooting for over 20 years (SASS), and even was a staff writer for their Cowboy Chronicle magazine. When I started, it was people who enjoyed honoring the Old West and shooting vintage firearms and replicas. It was fun. About 10 years ago, it started to change: Titanium firing pins, short stoke kits for lever rifles, mouse f@rt weak loads for the guns and leather gear that was never seen in the 19th Century. It turned into IPSC with cowboy boots. I loaded my cartridges with the original black powder, and was told I shot too slow and made too much smoke. They stuck me at the end of the shooting order, so I wouldn't offend people with my smoke! That was the last straw, and I quit. When I started in 1994, the rule book was a 4"x5" pamphlet with about three dozen pages. When I quit, there were about 6 or 8 massive three ring binders of rules.

Anyway, back on topic. I would love to have a two gun match where i could shoot my Inland and the Victory Model! Even a WW2 pistol match, to shoot it. That would be fun!

I'd have loved to find one of these when I collected US military. I had to settle for a 5" 38 S&W model. I never like the 5" barrel as much...

I have a Canadian owned S&W .38-200 with a 5" barrel. It's not real pretty but is somewhat rare as only 1500 were procured by Canada according to Stamps' book.

I don't know really anything about these revolvers, but I do like .38 Special.

In regards to having a good club, that is a must. I know my current club they basically leave you alone if you want to be left alone (range hours are 8 am in the morning to 10 pm, no booking etc.). I do sometimes miss the club I belonged to in Halifax as even though it had a very political side (those long range target shooters are a exceptionally political bunch!), we had a small group of about 12 of us who liked to play around (safely) and have a good time.

I remember we did this small range match which consisted of 10rds shotgun at 10 clays, 10rds rimfire at 50m, 10rds pistol at 25m, and 10rds rifle at 100m. The only rules were that you had to use iron sighted rifles, and the caliber had to be larger than a .223 for the rifle (which the long range crowd threw up a stink at as what would happen before that match, is they would show up to a competition even though they didn't participate in any of the practices or shooting sections, win the match with some fancy scoped rifle, then leave. Most them didn't even own iron sighted rifles). If you didn't have a pistol you could borrow someone elses. I think I came third (blew any chance of winning at the shotgun as I only got 3 out of 10 clays), and it was a good day. It also shows who is actually a better shooter as you can be great at one thing and absolutely terrible at another discipline.

Wish the other thread had been moved rather than closed.
Thanks for reviving it here.
Here is another.
Navy marked with dated Boyt holster, S&W letter and accoutrements .

A well worn holster too, nice Mk 1 too.

Half of the fun is finding related items to group.

Well the Victory came in today. I like it. Lots of honest wear but no pitting. The bore is strong with a little frost on the cylinder end. May clean up. The cylinder timing is good and lock up perfect even when holding pressure against the rotation. Finish and wear on cylinder matches the rest of the weapon. Head space appears good. I didn't have my feeler gauges but if the gap was any less I think it would be too close. The grips are replacement, I am guessing, as they are oversized. I checked inside the grips: no serial number, and condition is MUCH better than the rest of the weapon. I have another set of used grips that should be a better match. I also checked and the serial number on underside of barrel and bottom of grip frame match. V 8657. Very early for a Victory, as I understand, but not unheard of. All in all, well worth $300!!!! Oh, BTW, I picked up a really nice shoulder holster with 12 leather cartridge loops on the strap from Great War Supply. Very cool. It will look great with my Inland M1 carbine.

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Originally Posted by imarangemaster

I didn't have my feeler gauges but if the gap was any less I think it would be too close.

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I've never seen that be an issue.

A collector on the S&W forum speculated that the headspace might be off since the cylinder had been replaced. I can maybe get a thin business card trough the gap, but that's about it. I shot an old Model 3 S&W in .44 Russian, and it had a huge gap (relatively). Still shot well enough, at least minute of bandit at 25 yards! The nice thing about revolvers is that as long as lock up is good (and the chamber fairly well lined up with the forcing cone), and the firing pin hits the primer, they usually work as intended.

Back in the day when we could actually shoot these fine hand guns I had a S&W .38 special. It was a lovely gun, smooth action and very little could change my POA, didn't matter how I held it, where I aimed the round would just home in. We once had a competition and I was doing really well, then came a log shoot with a 1911a1. All you had to do was knock a log off a platform at about 20 yards. I kept missing and I could see my lead slipping away. I got frustrated and annoyed and just pointed and pulled the trigger. Low and behold, the last 3 shots knocked down the logs. I learnt not to aim a 1911 after that.

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Originally Posted by Brit plumber

I learnt not to aim a 1911 after that.

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1911s are notorious for needing practice to shoot. I never figured out why, I think it's the small sights. Perfect practice will overcome issues with accuracy in any of them...

I like the look of your Victory! Got plenty of character, and you don't need to fret over its finish so much.
My .38 special Victory was the 2nd handgun I ever bought, almost 10 years ago. I enjoy shooting it on occasion. Some day I might have to get a big brother m1917 revolver for it :D

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Originally Posted by zaugau

Some day I might have to get a big brother m1917 revolver for it

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I'd highly recommend it. The big .45 revolvers are great.

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Originally Posted by zaugau

I like the look of your Victory! Got plenty of character, and you don't need to fret over its finish so much.
My .38 special Victory was the 2nd handgun I ever bought, almost 10 years ago. I enjoy shooting it on occasion. Some day I might have to get a big brother m1917 revolver for it :D

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SWEET!

I went by the gunshop today to visit my Victory model. Re-installed the lanyard ring, and took off the non-serial numbered oversized replacement grips, and replaced them with a nice used set that matched almost perfectly for both size and wear. While I was at it, I checked the cylinder gap. It came in at .020", with virtually no fore and aft movement. I have heard .010 is optimum on civilan Model 10s, but wonder what the specs were for military Victory models.

Can't say what the endshake should be...but if it bothers you, you can get the little stainless shims from Brownell's. I think they're 1 thou thick each...?

IIRC from my armorer days, .002-.005" end-shake is normal. It actually allows it to function with a slightly high primer. We'll see next Tuesday when I pick her up. I'll take it to the indoor range and do some rounds to check function.

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Originally Posted by imarangemaster

It actually allows it to function with a slightly high primer.

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Right, I tightened up a Mod 10 one time too much and it was hard from there. After that I left them alone. I haven't seen one used up yet.

Well, My baby came to her new home. Vintage Western .38 Special 158 grain Lubaloy rounds in a reproduction shoulder holster from World War Supply.

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...bts9lw9y-1.jpg

Hopefully I'll get a chance to pop a few rounds in the woods tomorrow. I have about 1,000 rounds of .38 Special, about 700 rounds of it is vintage standard velocity 158s and 148 wadcutter. Another couple hundred is current production wadcutter and semi-wadcutter.

irst impressions:

First I cleaned it up and scrubbed the bore and chambers of the cylinder. The bore is shiny, crisp and has sharp rifling. Fortunately what I thought might be "frost" was just a really dirty bore.

Second, timing and lock up (using the S&W used revolver diagnostic guide PDF) is perfect and centered on the bore. Free play fore and aft on the cylinder is negligible. No contact with the recoil shield, with case bases while rotating.

Third, double action is VERY smooth, just as you would expect from a vintage S&W revolver.

Fourth, single action is AWESOME at about 2.5 pounds, crisp, with no creep. This should shoot very well.

Fifth, while the cylinder gap is .020", I suspect that it will shoot fine. I doubt if wartime production revolvers would adhere to a .006" to .010" cylinder gap, especially for a combat arm, expected to possibly subjected to terrible conditions.

Sixth, The used grips I put on fit much better than the NOS replacement (non-serial numbered) grips that were on it. They were in much nicer condition than the revolver. The wear on the used (serial numbered) grips I put on was a good match.

Anyone know what the wartime cylinder gaps specs were? I have had several British Webley and Enfield martial revolvers, and they had a much wider gap than civilian revolvers I have had.

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Originally Posted by imarangemaster

Free play fore and aft

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Of course you know that the end shake is checked after firing the action. Hold the trigger back and the hammer is still all the way down. You'll probably find practically no end shake...

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Originally Posted by browningautorifle

Of course you know that the end shake is checked after firing the action. Hold the trigger back and the hammer is still all the way down. You'll probably find practically no end shake...

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Yep,I did know it but thanks!

Figured so, by the way, nice looking rig and revolver. Very nice.

Took it today and fired about 100 rounds. I had a ball. There was a bit more side blast from the .020" cylinder gap, but the shooters on either side didn't seem to notice, so it could not have been too bad.

The Victory has a smooth and quick double action, even though the pull seemed about right. Very east to be "surprised" by the break.

Single action was a joy, with the trigger probably being close to two pounds. Here's 6 shots, off hand, single action from 10 yards. 1.5" x 2". I am a lousy bullseye shooter, and this thing made me look good.

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...tf1icwlv-1.jpg

Looks good, guess you don't have to scrap it after all? :madsmile:

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Originally Posted by browningautorifle

Looks good, guess you don't have to scrap it after all? :madsmile:

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Haha! Yep Jim, it may be a beat up old war horse, but it still functions as intended, and seems to be a lethal today as it was 75 years ago. Just like its cousin, my Inland M1 Carbine.

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Originally Posted by imarangemaster

seems to be as lethal today as it was 75 years ago

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It would take a while before anyone got close enough to poke you with a sharp stick, if you had that one and a box...

Assessment: I've had the Victory long enough to have had an opportunity to shoot it several times, clean it thoroughly, and do an detailed inspection.

-The condition is well worn, with lots of patina, but no real pitting.

-The bore is bright and shiny, though on close inspection it has a faint ring about 1.5" from the muzzle. There is no visible bulge on the exterior, even under oblique lighting. Based on my 10 yard target, this has no effect on accuracy.

-The cylinder is replaced, and has .020" gap. While it is double the civilian Model 10 gap, it also does not affect accuracy. There is no lead shaving and the timing is dead on. fore and after cylinder shake is nil.

-It was missing the lanyard ring, and had NOS GI replacement grips (un-serial numbered) that were oversized. I had a used set of serial numbered grips that had wear equal to the weapon, that were a good fit. I also had a Victory Model lanyard ring I put on.

I paid $300 "Buy it Now". Was it worth it? I think it was, at least to me. It is a shooter, and a representative model of the Victory Model my dad carried on Iwo Jima in 1945. It goes well with my Inland M1 Carbine and all of his WW2 stuff.

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Originally Posted by imarangemaster

Was it worth it?

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I think so too. Nice gun overall.

At that price, and with those results at the range, yeah I agree.

Yep, I was really surprised to see the ring after how well it shot. Since there is o bulge on the outside of the barrel, it must be relatively minor. Maybe the .020 cylinder gap saved the barrel!

Perhaps it was just simple like water in the barrel? Just a wet barrel...will do that. Not like mud or snow.

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Originally Posted by browningautorifle

Perhaps it was just simple like water in the barrel? Just a wet barrel...will do that. Not like mud or snow.

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Maybe! Thanks Jim, I did not know water in the barrel could do that. Hmmm... firing the weapon during the war with water in the barrel. OH, I bet if this thing could tell its story, it would be a great one!

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Originally Posted by imarangemaster

firing the weapon during the war with water in the barrel

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In the Pacific during an emergency, you wouldn't even know. There was enough rain too from what I understand. It could have been late too, RVN? Who knows. It did more time than one can imagine I'll bet.