In terms of range shooting, how much difference is there in POA/POI between these two bullet weights out of a Mauser?
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In terms of range shooting, how much difference is there in POA/POI between these two bullet weights out of a Mauser?
I believe the rifles were designed and set up at the factory with the heavier bullet.
What type of Mauser, are you reloading, what type of powder are you using if you are and what type of quantity, etc?
Depending on which Mauser variant it is, the sights could be regulated for a 150grn bullet (Patrone 'S', at a wopping 2850 ft/sec) or 198grn (Patrone 'Ss' at a 2450 ft/sec). Depending on the sight settings it can have a massive effect. If the sights are regulated for Patrone 'S' (think Gewehr 98s, Turkish Mausers etc.) a 198grn bullet will result in a lower point of impact. If the sights are regulated for Patrone 'Ss' the 150grn bullet will shoot higher. Depending on the range your shooting your minimum sight setting will have a big effect as well (for example a Gewehr 98 has a 400m minimum sight setting, most people shoot at 100m so the rifle shoots high at that distance). Lots of factors involved, and it can lead to substantial differences.
Best thing to do in your case is get yourself either A) Hornady's 2 volume set one contains load data for the cartridges. The other has the ballistic charts for every bullet listed in volume one with trajectories of them at the varying velocities, the rise and fall above the line of sight and the FPE for all the ranges/velocities.
Or if you do not want to do that you can buy the Quickload program and play with just about every parameter you want to give you the desired information
Its what I have done in both cases that way the information is right there at my finger tips or book shelf.
Here's a start anyway for you to look at;
Hornady reloading manuals | eBay
Also the condition of the rifle will have a bit to do with it, your altitude plus environmental conditions.
No German military Mauser was "designed for the 198 Ss round . The bore size , twist rate and throat was finalized in 1896 1/2 and was the same until the end of production in 1945 . Even early K98k's were sighted for the 154 S round , then changed later . That is why the upper sight base is removable and is stamped either Ss or S .
I'm confused by this. S was .323 and adopted in 1903. There is no way they were shooting that down a .318 bore at the velocities that stuff is going. Virtually all 8mm I've handled, including pre war Turk and WWII German is .323. Plus earlier guns were converted and marked, so something changed. sS was adopted around 1933, before the K98k was brought about around 1934. Did you mean something else by bore size?Quote:
Originally Posted by bob q
At any rate, maybe just me, but I find my worn G29/40 doesn't shoot 150s as well as my others that are like new. 170gr I don't notice as much difference. Overall I find the best performance to be from stuff in the 196-200 range. I did find the 150gr Turk to shoot higher than 196gr M75 or Russian, but then the Turk is famously hot. Some Portuguese stuff I have that I think is 150ish shoots closer to to the 196gr stuff, albeit still a bit higher.
The German military never used a .318 groove bore . The original ammo was a .3188 dia bullet down a .3208 groove bore . The S round was designed with a 154 grain .3208 main dia bullet to be used in those older .3208 bores , and yes it was shot in all the early Gew-88 rifles . It had a small .323 dia driving band to seal in the 1896 1/2 and later .323 groove bores . The S ammo was in use way before 1903 [ but not offically adopted until 1907, just read the German military ammo test reports of the period ] , the earliest headstamp date in collections is 1896 . I have it as early as 1899 . Tell me HOW earlier guns were converted ? Tell what marks you are talking about and what you think they mean . Ss ammo was developed in 1905 for machine guns and was adopted as the main ammo for both weapons in the mid 30's . Some K98ks' had S ammo sights , I have one so marked . They were using up the older S ammo . That is why the sight was change , and that is all that was changed . The German spent a lot of time changing sights , twice on the Gew-88 rifle , once on the Gew-98 , and then designed the k98k with a interchangeable sight base . Ss ammo does have a .323 dia bullet , it was Never intended to be fired in the Gew-88 .
I have question regarding the 88 rifle weren't these rifles re barreled to the .323 S bullet? Isn't that why the S is stamped on the rifle also the . mark for a re barreled example?
Bob q seems to have some original sources of information, so perhaps he can confirm/correct that the "S" modification was just an adjustment of the transition cone to accomodate the Spitzer bullet without a serious increase in pressure. Just a touch with a chamber reamer, no more...
I have no information as to the original (pre-1905 S-mod) dimensions of the transition cone, but the "Masstafeln" give a starting diameter of 8.22mm and a length of 35.01mm for the JS chambering. Note that the 6.5 and 7mm Mausers have a much shorter cone and are generally thought to be more precise.
So the 0.318" bullets would be very loose indeed in an "S" barrel, fairly rattling down the long transition cone with a fair amount of gas blow-by and throat erosion. I have no direct knowledge, but imagine that the grouping is unimpressive. Has anyone got any first-hand experience?
First S is not a bore size . The original barrels were .321 groove . The S bullet was .321 main body dia with a small .323 driving band . There is no need to do any " transition " , a myth made up by people who sought to explain how they fired .323 dia bullets [ not the real size ] in a .318 bore [ not the real size ] .The S ammo was designed to be fired in the original .321 bore . Since the original "forcing cone " for the 226 grain long round nose bullet was already three times longer than needed for the short 154 grain spritzer bullet , there was no need to "lengthen" the throat . They kept that chamber size for all 8mm 98's up to 1945 . A 1945 K-98k has the same chamber throat , and will chamber the old long bullet . ALL the S stamp meant was the rifle was cleared to fire S ammo . All my S marked and non S marked rifles have the same size chambers . There was only a .002 larger neck dia from the .3188 dia to the .3208 dia bullet , how many military rifles have you seen that had that tight a chamber ? There may have been 1 out of 10,000 that was too tight and needed to be reamed . The armour's S kit was a solid dummy cartridge , and a S stamp . He stamped all rifles that cleared . If by chance one did not it was sent to back for a ream . As far as accuracy ,they were more worried about barrel fouling , it was still ok . An original P-88 bullet with the hollow base bore rides good enough , even in a .323 groove barrel . BUT about 80 % of the Gew-88 rifles in German service to WWI still had a .321 groove barrel , and were shot with both types of ammo . I have a nice M-95 sporter in 8x50R with a .330 groove barrel . My best accuracy [ 2.5 inch 5-shot groups at 100 yards ] is with the old Speer .323 225 grain cupped base round nose bullet .
Belt ANY open-based bullet up the rear end with several tens of thousands of PSI and you WILL get enough "distortion" to make a fairly good seal in a barrel, even if the forward section is only just engaging the rifling (bore-rider).
If any such distortion is mostly concentric and ditto the "bore-riding", no problems. See also the classic .303 for another example.
The US .30-6 was among the earliest in the business of "tight" groove diameters; .300" bore / .308" (ish) groove diameter.
Anyone have the specs for the original .30-03 bullet and barrel?
My 1905 M-1903 with the original barrel has a .309 groove . My original 30/03 ammo has a .306 bullet , same as my 30/40 ammo . Most countries either made their bores tighter or the bullets larger as they changed to spitzers and boattails .
Boy there's a lot of good information in this tread:)
The German 154gr. bullet was intended to be the round of choice for all Kar98k's. The 196gr. bullet was solely intended for MG use, but as a practical matter having 2 different cartridges just didn't make sense. The Germans gave up on the 154gr. bullet and most of WWII ammunition was the 196gr. loading. They also had many other loads and even had quite a large production of non-corrosive ammunition in WWII.
Calif-Steve I have also read that the German air force used the heavier 196 Gr load in their aircraft.Quote:
Originally Posted by Calif-Steve
There is some Romanian ex -airforce heavy ball recently here in Canada ................supposedly recycled Nazi ammo with non-corrosive primers switched out. Harold