My No4T rifles

I finally have a scope on my no4T, its a mk1 but Im satisfied and it was in my budget. I have two rifles and a neighbor had the other of the three rifles that were shipped to rural Nebraska in 1969 from Ohio. The person they were shipped to thought they would be good hunting rifles. He got three rifles two wood crates and one mk3 scope with can. I've posted pics of them so some of the experts here can decipher them. My rifle is the only one of the three with a scope number in the stock. The rifle numbered to the case that says "less telescope" still has a battle sight on it. My neighbors rifle , (he also got the mk3 scope) has the prettiest wood in the stock that I've ever seen on a military rifle. I also put in a pic of my beautiful "Lee Speed" rifle. I asked the elderly original owner if he had scopes for my rifles and he said that a Burris or Leupold would be better.
My part of the story starts about 15 yrs ago when a casual acquaintance who is not a gun guy mentioned to me that he had a British sniper rifle. My first thought was "yeah right, probably a sporterized surplus rifle". Being polite I silenced what I was thinking and said " Id really like to see it sometime". Imagine my surprise when I showed up at his place to see his No4t with transit case and mk3 scope in its case! I immediately asked questions and got answers. He was offered the set about 30 yrs ago for either $100 or $200 and bought it. He had no idea what he really had and not even a clue to its value. He thought there was another rifle and encouraged me to see if it was for sale. I spent several months tracking the owner down and sent some letters to him to introduce myself and mention my Grandparents who he knew well. The story is long and was somewhat stressful, he didnt want to sell them. He would come back to my community annually during Memorial day and would stop in and visit me though we didnt talk about the rifles. Then one day a few years after I met him(about 10 years ago) he showed up with two rifles and a transit case (unfortunately no scope) He left them with me without really saying anything about them. I put them aside and didnt know what to think. Then the next year he showed up again and I asked him if he wanted to sell them or what he wanted to do with his rifles. He said "I dont have any rifles, they are yours!" Blown away I profusely thanked him and started to look for a scope. I finally found a mk1 that was in the budget a week ago.
One of my rifles has stamped "TR, S and T and the triggerguard swivel. My other rifle has "TR, C (no T) a two aparature rear sight and no swivel. My friends rifle has "TR, S, it has no T and no swivel. I welcome any observations and would like to know why only my rifle has a scope number stamped into the stock. Also why my other rifle has a two aperture battle sight. Thanks, Ross

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Very nice and well worth the long wait! There will be a lot of envious collectors out there!:clap:

Welcome to the forum, very nice collection of very expensive rifles.

Nice pieces. The first No4(T) I ever bought in the early 80s had that same "TORONTO" written on in grease pencil with some other similar markings. That was also a "T Less Telescope" marked chest, and the rifle was an N322-- 1944 in very similar condition. Anyone remember who "H.S.L." was? "---- Surplus Ltd." ?

Hercules Surplus Limited on Yonge Street, Toronto, Ont.
They were the ones who mixed up the scopes.
The rifles came on one pallet and the scopes on another.

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Originally Posted by Warren

Hercules Surplus Limited on Yonge Street, Toronto, Ont.
They were the ones who mixed up the scopes.
The rifles came on one pallet and the scopes on another.

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Idiots. At least the Italian dealer had the sense to match bolts to rifles on all those No.4s and No.1s they got from their navy a few years back.

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Originally Posted by Surpmil

Idiots. At least the Italian dealer had the sense to match bolts to rifles on all those No.4s and No.1s they got from their navy a few years back.

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Apparently they were able to match a few. From what I understand (and have seen on the internet) they found it much easier to renumbered the bolts.

Reb87 - You asked for information on the these three very nice rifles. If I am understanding your description and the photos correctly (I am working off of a small screen this week):

All three rifles:
* were made in 1944 at BSA Shirley (wartime Code M47C) in England.
* were stamped "TR" as they were found to be very accurate and were thus flagged for conversion to telescopic rifles.
* had the iron sights adjusted for accuracy and rifle body stamped "S" on the right side, just below the bolt head.
* then went to Holland and Holland (famous gun makers) in London (wartime code "S51") for conversion to sniper equipment.

M32464 and N31677, for reasons unknown to me, only went partway through the conversion to sniper equipment process at Holland and Holland (E.g. Scope pads and cheek rest fitted) but they were never fitted with scopes and scope brackets. They are technically known as the No. 4 MK. I (T. LESS TELESCOPE). It is thought that roughly 3,000 rifles remained unfinished sniper rifles like these. This is a legitimate and scarce variant.

Rifle 1 - No. 4 MK.I ( T. LESS TELESCOPE) serial number M32464 belongs to your friend I believe. Backsight is a Mark I (modified) meaning the battle aperture has been removed so as to avoid striking the scope. He now has No. 32 MK. 3 scope SN 24197 on it using bracket numbered to rifle serial number C37838 (which is incorrectly labelled C37338 on the paper label in the No. 8 Mark I scope case.).

Rifle 2 - No. 4 MK. I (T) serial number P36763 also has a MK. I (modified) backsight was originally fitted at Holland and Holland with No.32 MK. 3 scope serial number 25442 and was stamped with "T" on the left sidewall signifying that it had the conversion process completed and that its designation was changed from No. 4 MK.I to No. 4 MK.I (T). If you remove the butt, you should find "36763" stamped on the top shelf of the butt, an area hidden when the butt has been slid into the socket of the body. You have now added mismatched scope No.32 MK. I serial number 7137 using bracket numbered to rifle AB8387. This is fine as many owners have mismatched sets due to the way the surplus dealer(s) sold them. There is hope for Nebraska however. I had a rifle out of PA and located the owner of the matching scope set in Nebraska. I sold him the rifle so he could make the set whole again.

Rifle 3 - No. 4 MK.I ( T. LESS TELESCOPE) serial number N31677. Now fitted with a MK.II sight. The Mark II sight is a wartime economy sight and is incorrect for a sniper or No. 4 MK.I ( T. LESS TELESCOPE) as it should be a British Mark I (modified) backsight, the same as on the other two rifles. The Mark I sights turn up for sale (e.g. On eBay) and swapping them is not a big job. A gunsmith or machinist could mill off the rear battlesight, especially as they could use your other one as a pattern.

Ethical comment: There is no ethical problem with adding a bracket and No. 32 scope to the No. 4 MK. I (T. LESS TELESCOPE) as long as one is honest about it and more importantly does not add any forgery I.e. markings such as the "T" and scope SN on the wrist or changing the SN on the bracket.

I would request that if the matching rifle ever turns up, that you be willing to work with that owner towards a win-win situation where the scope and bracket can be reunited with their rifle.

Attachment 80162Seaforth72, thanks for the info! I have already looked thru the rifles looking for scopes thread and totally agree with you on reuniting proper numbered scopes and rifles. My main collection consists of damascus barreled shotguns and I am disgusted when I find a special gun that someone has modified recently. Preserving the history of these rifles should be our main focus as collectors. One thing you missed was my rifle with the two position sight. It has a C stamped where the S is on the other two rifles. From my limited understanding that would explain the incorrect sight. Have any other rifles been stamped with a C instead of S?

I had the pleasure of meeting and getting to know the two English brothers that owned Hercules Surplus Limited on Yonge Street in Toronto in the early 1990's not long before they closed up shop and never found them to be idiots. They sold me a lot of great stuff for the few years I visited their store. The same thing happened upon import of these rifles at Klines in Chicago and Interarms in Virginia. The reality is that they were just cheap surplus firearms purchased and imported in bulk. Very few in the civilian world knew or cared about "matching" vs. "mismatched" scopes, brackets, etc. in those days well before the in-depth studies we have today. That's why when you find an all matching specimen, you have something really special. My first No.4T is a 1943 BSA that was purchased from a local gun shop in Chatham, Ontario by my Uncle for $150 and was imported by Hercules Surplus Ltd. in the mid 1960's. It's all numbers matching and complete with the last of four telescopes it had after it was rebuilt in 1954-55. Guess what? It's "ZF" because the body is worn out but was culled after it was completely refurbished and didn't pass the gauging standards. Nobody knew or cared what that meant either back then but it's a fact. It's still shoots like a dream but it's retired and I don't shoot it anymore. I certainly left the markings intact as it left England so many years ago. Hell, I had no clue what all those splotches of yellow paint and white letters painted on until I was politely educated here in 2003 by someone who is very "in the know" and respected!

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Originally Posted by Lee Enfield

Originally Posted by Surpmil
Idiots. At least the Italian dealer had the sense to match bolts to rifles on all those No.4s and No.1s they got from their navy a few years back.
Apparently they were able to match a few. From what I understand (and have seen on the internet) they found it much easier to renumbered the bolts.

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Hi, I have seen on their website a few interesting pictures of the matching operations between rifles and bolts.
It was a time consuming job, but it has been done for real.
Euroarms is a very highly appreciated company here, and many collectors (including smaller ones like me) have bought rifles from them which are really matching.
Maybe some just didn't have the matching parts, but the ones I have seen and own are good.
The very nice thing is that most of the rifles were in very good conditions, since the Navy never used them, apart for some ceremonies way back in time.
There are still a few A-grade pieces out there if you know the right gun dealer who has contacts with the owners.
If I'm not wrong, the should have closed business or being short before going that way.

I've bought a couiple of dozen of both the No1 & No4 rifles that came from the Italian Navy & whilst it's only anecdotal & from a small sample size I found about 25% of the rifles bore genuinely (or ordnance re-matched) bolts. I buy from one of the bigger UK dealers who buys them several hundred at a time, mainly for deactivation & sale to the collector market; no doubt he gets them 'as they come', which is what I like.

So the "C" on your cutoff boss is an unsolved mystery? Interesting indeed.

Nice looking sporter too.

So.......
Is the meaning of the 'C' on the cut off boss known?

Here's a hypothesis, and just a hypothesis: since the "S" indicated that the sights did not require re-zeroing after conversion to "T" specs, (see p.117 of Peter's book), the "C" might be for "Corrected", indicating that they did require re-zeroing.

It could also be that it was decided after not very long that there was no need to continue this practice since the absence of the "S" could be understood the same way.

Interesting thought......
My L42 has a C over-stamped with an S

I have often wondered if the S was added later 'because someone thought it should have one'

A photo or two would help. ;)

Best I could do....Attachment 80839Attachment 80840

And of course there are a few unconverted TR stamped rifles around with both of the examiner's marks and the "S"...not supposed to be there, but they are...