Full Epoxy Bedding

Hi,

Long time lurker first time poster. To be honest, every time I have had a question I have searched the archives and found an answer in no time, so I hope that my searching skills haven't failed me this time.

I am in the process of building a no1mk3* into a "range rifle". I have my original and "collectable" Lee Enfield's but wish to put them aside to both reduce wear and to try and get that slight advantage against my comrades K31's, M38's and M1903's.

I have acquired most of the parts including an unused Lithgow heavy barrel, sights (PH5a, windmill foresight), opened up nose cap and a set of wood work already reamed for the H contour barrel.

The draws in the rifle were completely degraded and I had to chisel them 10mm to get to hard timber.

I have previously rebuilt draws for my old target rifle and also that of friends but this time I wanted to do something different and epoxy bed the action. This is partly due to the wide ranging conditions in which I shoot. I was inspired by this video; Lee Enfield No.4 Mk 1 rifle bedding tutorial and hunting. - YouTube by Nathan Foster.

My question (after the long winded intro) is.... can the bedding compound take up the gap in the draws.

I own and have read Roger Wadham's excellent book as well as Skennerton's and have searched the net. Most information in relation to epoxy bedding Lee Enfield's is centred around spreading the load of the contact surfaces and not on actually bedding the action in the stock.

Cheers,

Mitch

Umm welcome to the forum the vid does not work for me anyway. It may be an interesting thing that but I am not sure how you would form it up to the 70 degrees (I think) of the draws and given the width of them they may not stand (The compound) up to the constant recoil forces. Others will chime in I am sure. I have Wadhams, Skennertons books also all of Nathans books (6 of)as well, in fact met up with him when in NZ and had a pleasant day on the range shooting his 308, 7mm Rem Mag and his 7mm Practical a really top guy he knows the ropes.

Watching that video and reading here about these types of rifles has my interest in obtaining one all of the sudden. Fitting the stocks correctly and the knowledge associated with or without the use of epoxy and understanding the recoil characteristics and how they are related or being transmitted is extremely fascinating.

A couple of points I have found from doing this in the past, not saying this is correct, but it has worked for me.

A No4 I bought cheap a few years back had really bad draws and splitting, in a really poor state, I replaced the forend eventually, but in order to see how it shot I took it down to the workshop, glued and pegged the splits, then cleaned with degreaser and ruffed the contact points and draws.

Made a really strong mix of repair fibreglass paste, carefully applied to the prepared areas, covered the underside of the barreled action with oil and quickly fitted the the rifle up and tightened everything up.

30 mins later carefully seperate the action from the woodwork and you should have a "perfectly" bedded rifle..

There are variables of course, like the wood being a natural medium and moving around with heat and humidity and the 2 pack fibreglass material that won't move, not such an issue here in the UK, but it could I would imagine be a real problem in some countries.

How long will it last, that's a question, it depends how well you prepared the woodwork, what paste you used and how you mixed it, but it should last for a good long time.

By no means a substitute for proper bedding, but it has it's place.

Thanks for the information.

I will try and bed it and leave the gap between the draws and stiple the timber surfaces to try and maximise adhesion. I was going to use a purpose made bedding kit for the majority of the work but also thought about using PC-7 or a similar thicker "putty" type adhesive to build up the draws before doing the pour.

If I later find that the epoxy draws are starting to crack, give way or am otherwise unhappy with them, I can grind them out and replace them with timber (or even copper block faces?).

I will use the wrist/fore-end contact and the height of the action resting at the front trigger guard screw for reference points.

If any one else has tried this method let me know.

And sorry Cinders, I fixed the video up and it should work now.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mit

I have acquired most of the parts including an unused Lithgow heavy barrel, sights (PH5a, windmill foresight)

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Windmill foresight?
This is something I haven't heard of before, I assume it's an Aussie made sight or modification?

I'm not sure if it is a solely Australian modification but they are relatively common of range rifles. It is a 4 bladed foresight in which all the blades are equal in height but have either different thickness, profiles or have Bisley dots/Miller lines. There is a spring tensioned detent in the rear that is pushed with in to allow the sight to rotate. I have attached a picture of mine.






Attachment 80137

Thanks Mitch,

That's a new one on me and windmill aptly describes it!

They come up on flea bay from time to time and command a good price.

Would you consider bedding the rifle in the old fashioned manner; as the rifle would have been modified for target shooting in period.
Maybe a more challenging project! But probably more satisfying when it comes right.

temperture extreams and rapid temerature changes would soon loosen the metal to bedding bond. if your ok with that.

not sure what you mean ,in your title you refer to full epoxy bedding. can you describe what that means.

Thanks for all the responses. mike16 I can understand there will be some movement between the metal and epoxy, but can't imagine this to be much more than that between the timber and metal contact areas. By full epoxy bedding I was trying to describe bedding in such a way that the epoxy is solely relied upon on to reinforce all contact surfaces.

For the best information on pretty much all the tried and tested bedding techniques mainly using the old method of simply shaping the foreend, not adding anything, read James Sweets books.

I have used a couple of the methods described and the processes are generally very slow and painstaking and just as often as not, fail to produce leaving you with a scrapped foreend. Back in the day another could be had easily, so out went the fail, start again from scratch. These days there are no supplies of foreends to dip into.... Personally I am against using bedding compounds in these old girls, but necessity is the mother of invention. Re using previously damaged or "fail" woodwork is the only choice these days.

About books on accurising... I have read a few of these and there are some out there who are suggesting methods that involve aspects of a few different methods from James Sweet's books.... Not saying that it wouldn't work, just that it wasn't a tried and true method... Proceed with caution, don't cut, rout, grind, sand, file, chisel or scrape any part you are not willing to throw away...

Here is a (for want of a better word) rant I had a long while back on the topic of bedding when faced with someone wanting to hack into the foreend with a dremel because his mates told him it would shoot better. Some of this won't be topical here, but pasted it all on anyway.... The method is standard bedding, but disregarding the inner band, it works quite nicely with a H barrel.... if you get it right....

The bedding basically consisted of large area of contact on the rear of the foreend on the butt socket, contact on the flat of the foreend behind the recoil surfaces, then good even contact at the recoil surfaces. The bottom of the receiver should touch the foreend on both sides from the middle of the magazine well to the front trigger guard screw lug, then around it up the receiver ring on both sides ideally to the 4 o'clock and 8 o'clock marks. The barrel knox should be bedded to at least 5 o'clock to 7 o'clock. The barrel should be centre bedded for an inch either side of the inner band recess, and then for at least the last four inches to the muzzle. With the foreend fitted as such, and the trigger guard fitted but no bands, it should take between 4 and 7 lbs of lift at the muzzle to pull it away from the foreend. If all these factors are correct, the front handguard may touch the barrel at the very front and keep the muzzle ring of the nosecap off the barrel. If all these factors are correct, then the inner band, the barrel centering stud and the nosecap do absolutely nothing. (remember, this is basics, there is more to than this)

Now, add a little warping....
The inner band is slightly bigger than the barrel. It is positioned in the foreend with a washer and spring set into the wood for the screw to pass through. The screw has a large shoulder at the end of it's shank before the thread. When in position, the shoulder locks up against the inner band. There is nothing between them to tighten. They are just locked together. The spring provides some downward tension between the band and the foreend, the band is down on the wood in it's recess. Properly bedded, it barely touches the barrel. If the foreend warps, the inner band, by way of the spring tension, holds to barrel down to the foreend... the reason for this is to keep the barrel "sprung" slightly to keep upward tension from the foreend at the muzzle. If it has warped a bit more, the barrel centering stud with it's V block construction and spring tension keep a last little bit of tension under the barrel as the foreend has warped away. At this point, the barrel has probably came in contact with the muzzle ring of the nosecap, being centered by the slight cutout at the top of the hole.

If you follow the progression, you can see the rifle still had a chance at keeping reasonable accuracy until the warping of the foreend became quite bad. Without the inner band, barrel centering stud and the nosecap, the rifle would have been back to the armourers for hours of remedial bedding work to get them shooting accurately again. The whole set up is only to reduce the maintenance liability of the bedding. This was probably the main reason behind the No4's heavier floating barrel.

Now, if you really want to touch on the dark art of SMLE bedding... just think how much work you would cause by taking a couple of thou too much wood off under the front of the receiver.... All your bedding from there forward would have to be re done as well as the angle of the rear surface of the foreend and the recoil surfaces. If you think it's not much, just ask anyone who has bedded a No1 from scratch, using the old techniques.

Then get into the depths of bedding methods for target rifles and the real witchcraft comes out... I am convinced that they require a full moon, dancing naked around a bonfire and some form of sacrifice to make them right...

anyway, here's a pic of a foreend. It shows where the barrel and action are contacting the wood from the factory...you will see that the barrel touches all the way from the inner band recess to the muzzle. This was the aim, but minimum was an inch past the inner band recess and the last four inches to the muzzle. This rifle shoots close to moa all day, hot, cold in between, out of a standard barrel.
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Attachment 80237


There is a lot more to bedding a No1 than I've gone into here, though. It was just more a demonstration of what to look for and why it is like that.
For a lot of remedial work on rifles that haven't kept to their original bedding for some reason, I go more down the line of the methods like "India Packing" as described in James Sweets earlier books.
I offer up this bit more info in the interests of improving accuracy (I suggest if it shoots 3" at 100yds DON'T TOUCH IT!!!!! You may make it worse, so you have a lot to lose!) hopefully without ruining a collectable rifle- something I will never do for any reason.

Even though the barrel is not being held to the foreend by the upthrust of the foreend, it can still be dampened by packing the front handguard or foreend. You can use a little bit of thin gasket paper for an inch either side of the inner band and the last four inches to the muzzle in the foreend and see if this gives the upthrust as spoken about in my earlier post. Then it becomes trial and error. The muzzle ring of the nosecap might contact the top of the barrel once the foreend is packed, but if it groups ok, leave it... after all, tighter groups is the reason for mucking with it, and nothing permanent has been done that effects the value if it is a collectable.
Quite often, on testing, you will see a rifle string it's warm up shots vertically before settling into a group after half a dozen rounds. If you chose to try to get it shooting same POI cold and hot, you may be in for a whole world of pain... some rifles just will not do it, seemingly no matter what you do.
The next step would be to pack the handguard in the same areas as you packed the foreend. You can either try the handguard packed with or without the packing in the foreend, once again it becomes all trial and error. When packing the handguard, add enough so the handguard sits very slightly above the foreend at the inner band, and then you may need to pack around the outside of the foreend under the outer band to make it clamp the barrel down. Fit a bit of gasket paper in the handguard at the muzzle (only a bit over an inch, otherwise you will bow the handguard - some target shooters used to make up and fit big steel strap clamps around the front of the handguard if it was needed for accuracy) check that the handguard actually pushes down on the barrel, and once again, try it out at the range.

One point I need to make here, before all else. If the foreend is not tight at the draws, meaning it can move forwards backwards along the barrel with the triggerguard, bands nosecap and handguards removed, you are wasting your time. It is going to break. Don't ever pack the rear of the foreend at the butt socket to tighten it up, you will only speed up the process of breaking the foreend. The steel bush inside the foreend at the front trigger guard screw is a set size in relation to the wood. Off hand I won't quote a figure, but it is only very slightly shorter than the thickness of the wood, providing for a minimum of crush when tightening the screw before the trigger guard bottoms and locks on the collar. Tightening the front trigger guard screw more by shortening the bush will not stop the foreend from moving longer than a few shots- it is not a fix for a loose foreend either, and will do further damage to your foreend.

Almost every rifle is different and almost every rifle requires something different to get the most out of it. Some of these things should improve a rifle, but whether or not it reaches it's max potential is unknown, as is if it can actually be improved to begin with.

If you reach a level you are happy with, don't mess with it! Your next stroke of the chisel might stuff it beyond redemption.

Once again, there is more to it than this... but maybe you are getting the idea... "if it ain't broke, don't fix it"

Here is what I did to bed a sporter.... First pic, making the action bedding block. Second pic, a few years later, making the chassis extension and the butt adaptor. Then finished article (except for the glass... it deserves better glass!). Just a Lithgow sporter I have had since 1980...

Fitting up the fore end correctly can make a huge difference to accuracy.
I had serious issues with the accuracy of my No1 mkIII*. I have finally got it somewhere respectable.
The wood fit made a huge difference; I started from the wrist and worked forward. I used brass shims at the recoil lugs after some minor trimming. The shims are slightly different thickness to get the barrel properly centered and both lugs and wrist snug fit. It was a very interesting project, being my first attempt. And absolutely no Epoxy !
here are some before and after targets fired at 50 metres.
Attachment 80246Attachment 80247Attachment 80245

Using a bedding compound, 2 pack epoxy/fibreglass paste etc has it's place, especially if the forend you are using has already had an enthusiastic amateur with a dremmel attacking it at some point, or it's in generally poor serviceable order.

Point is, if it's already toast, then there's nothing to loose!

EVERYBODY... please please please... promise me whatever you do.... you will never do what is called the "American Express/ Lemonade" bedding technique.
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Attachment 80270

Well with the threat of expulsion I will let the OP know that I took my fully epoxy bedded No4 7.62 out for it's first shots today to zero the scope. Projectiles are 155gn HJBC fullbore.
Straight off the bat groups are 1 1/2". Way better than I had expected. Now with load development and the Muzzle brake fitted it will hopefully go even tighter.
I came across this rifle as someone elses project and it has a Fullbore barrel fitted. I had some very poor wood so I thought I would give the Devcon Plastic steel a go. Pretty much bedded as the post above but with the draws and wrist area bedded as well. Has up pressure at the rear of the trigger guard.
Hope the OP appreciates this.:surrender::lol:

Thanks guys,

I will give the epoxy bedding a go to try something different.

I have repaired draws with hardwood blocks in the past but as I have taken off the original timber and am using a fore-end already channelled to free float a H barrel I don't feel as though I have that much to lose by giving the bedding technique used by Nathan Foster a go.

Thanks Martins, they are great results! how much slack did you take up in the draws with the devcon?

I will be devoting some leave I have coming up to the project and will post some pictures when complete.

I would say 2mm on the drawers then bedded the back of the stock at the wrist when that had dried, then bedded the trigger guard after that had dried. So 3 procedures.
The stock also has dowels centering it.

Mit: Since you're starting with a forend already opened for the H barrel, why not try setting it up conventionally, as a baseline, before going on to this epoxy approach? The sort of precision being shown and talked about here is all achievable with standard techniques. If you were unhappy with the results you could then proceed with the epoxy and make a bit of an interesting experiment out of it. I try to keep an open mind but I've never seen much that would suggest this epoxy bedding is either a sure-fire path to accuracy or a way to salvage decrepit forends. On the other hand, I'd be interested in seeing a well documented before and after test. My own H barrel is fully floated forward of the barrel reinforce and I took the somewhat unusual approach (with a walnut forend) of using copper blocks on the all important draws. It allows, via thin shims behind the blocks, for fine tuning of the contact on each side and it has stood the test of several hundred rounds. Good luck with whatever you decide to do and be sure to show us the results. Regards.

Ridolpho

Mitt, (everyone can block their ears, cover their eyes etc.lol)
Well the No4 7.62 tactical is finished. Now has a muzzle break fitted, scope mount is made out of 4mm angle iron (because the crap no gunsmith ones flex) Lynx 6-24X42 scope.
Also trigger group has been cleaned up and second stage is now a nice 4 1/2 lbs pull. (Thanks Peter Laidler)
I took her out for a test and also tried Nosler Custom Competition 155gn projectiles. Results;
100yds Nosler CC projectiles 1/2" 5 shot group!!!!!!!
100yds HJBC 1" 5 shot groups.
400yds quick 4 shot group just to check elevations. 3 shots under 1 1/2" 4th shot (pulled) under 3".
So Mitt I reakon the full epoxy bedding has worked well:dancingbanana:

martins8589, that's a great result!

I have bought my acra-gel and am looking forward to giving it a go.

I have started test staining a no4 birch hand guard in an attempt to blend it to the coach wood hand guard I will splice it with. On a side note anyone used the handguard retaining lower band/ring (not sure of the correct name) off a no4 on a no1mk3. I understand I will have to create the channel in the fore-end. Would be a nicer fit than using the clamps off the original handguard to secure the one piece section.

My project has hit a minor hurdle, on the quest for a suitable rifle I was given a Lithgow 1942 from a generous relative. It is still full of grease from its FTR in 1955. All my mates (and my wife) say I'm mad to even turn a screw on it so I am unlikely to use it as the base for my project. What a terrible thing to happen.

::yikes::crying: Mitt, don't do it!!!!!!! an unfired FTR is worth over $1000 now. If you need a SMLE barreled action PM me.
Terrible!!! I think not. Your privileged.:)

Don't worry martins8589 the rifle is safe and will be put in a silicone sock and remain in its current state.

It is a much thinner grease then that found on my no4 bayonet I bought in its paper and feels like normal grease as opposed to cosmolene.

The rifle still has remnants of the brown paper and a grey and yellow sticker with "SAF" in a diamond. Not sure if anyone knows what era that sticker is to try and date its sale?

The magazine and front sling swivel had poked through the paper and are coroded, amazing to see how well the grease paper did its job.

Will let you know how my quest for another more suitable rifle goes. I will aim to buy a full wood SMLE with a bad bore only to try and and build up some more spares.

So this thread will have to wait until I get another Permit To Acquire (Justification of why I need another rifle to the government + a $36 fee).

I will start trying to make the one piece hand-guard while I wait. One sold on eBay for a sickening amount today.

One of the problems with using any sort of "resin" based material in bedding is the condition of the base timber.
A typical Lee Enfield fore-end will have been generously anointed with oil for most of its life.

Resins, be they polyester or epoxy do not stick well in such circumstances.

The reasons for re-"doing' the draws as per Capt. Laidlers textbook admonitions are several:

The issue of oil-contamination is one.

The tiny amount of resin will be harder than the timber and will compress and distort the parent wood, and result in the "detachment of the resin. There is a good reason those copper plates were held on with screws.

You have to cut back the damaged draws to get to "clean" timber anyway, so why not do it by the book.

As for "bearing surfaces" forward of the action?

IF you are shooting good-old Mk7 ball (lucky you), the recommended (military) standard is specifically intended to work in harmony (as it were) with the barrel vibrations induced by THAT ammo, and that ammo ONLY.

Vintage 8Z, Lapua, Winchester, PPU etc, do NOT duplicate Mk7 very closely at all, therefore, the barrel vibrations / waves, etc. are quite different.

If you never shoot past 100yds, you may never notice this, but things will get "weird" out at 400 plus.

Sweets book goes into a LOT of detail about setting up No1 and No4 rifles for target shooting, but even those ideas may not work.

The best thing is to get the fore-end fitted to the barreled action as per "THE BOOK" (the proper military armourer's manuals) and THEN play around with ammo or, if you must, the bedding.

And there is precious little point in doing this to a rifle with a barrel that has an eroded throat and muzzle, regardless of the ammo available, or with a fore-end that is split, warped, or more patches than original timber.

Final note: If you want to play with "resin" bedding of ANY rifle, the "go-to" material is "Stainless-Steel Devcon". This stuff is so tough when set, it is used to do minor repairs on milling machine beds that have been "attacked" by errant cutters. BUT, regardless of the job in hand, the substrate material MUST be completely oil-free before "filling' or the patch will become loose / fall out in very sort order.

Use of "oil" as a release agent is to be avoided as it will contaminate the bedding compound right from the start. Your local (or mail-order) "fibre-glass supplies" store will have release agent in stock, cheap (ish). This stuff is an emulsion not unlike the soft, clear "paper adhesive" used by school kids around the world. There are also waxes as used by boat-builders to stop very large boat hulls sticking in the moulds during lay-up. This stuff is also somewhat water-soluble. The usual method for releasing a hull (or deck assembly) from a mould is to plug a water hose into the special fitting on the outside of the mould, turn on reasonably high-pressure water, and literally "float" the product off the mould.

Thanks Bruce,

I have cleaned all the timber back to good clean timber, this was part of the reason I wanted to use epoxy as I had to scrape a bit of timber away on most of the contact areas in the stock. Someone had already made a mess of the fore-end when it was previously bedded so that's why I thought it was a good candidate for the epoxy. It is now back to nice clean timber that I can stipple to create a larger surface area to get better adhesion.

I have repaired or replaced draws in the past and may still do that in this rifle and fire a few rounds as a baseline but will definitely still use epoxy around the main screw/side rails as there has already been timber removed to the point where I could create further issues if I bring the whole receiver down to that level.

I have a brand new H barrel ready to fit and will be using handloads. So I won't have much to blame apart from the bedding if things go astray.

Thanks for the advice with the devcon. I was planning on using that to bed the draws if I went down that path.

As for "bearing surfaces" forward of the action, that had me confused as well. Do you think he is referring to the small steps at the front of the no.4 receiver?

As a bit of an update I have acquired a 1902 MLE mk1* that I will use as a base for the project for something a little different. The action is smooth and that trigger is brilliant, so I'm looking forward to getting it all together. I have already filled in the charger bridge slot in the stock.

Still in the process of making the one piece hand guard. I'm still trying to work out on the best way to secure it on the receiver end, I thought about using the standard hand-guard clips or making tabs coming up from the side of the fore-end to small bolts. Has anyone tried the no4 band/ring at the receiver to secure one?

Mitt, My 1901 Enfield Heavy barrel "Fullbore" target rifle has a one piece hand guard and it has the original spring clips fitted to it.

Mit:

Those "one-piece" hand-guards for the No1 turn up from time to time. Their use obviously precludes the use of the standard sights.

The one I have "somewhere" around here, is basically held on at the rear by a more-or-less standard rear hand-guard "clip". It came off a Lithgow-actioned "range rifle that had a proper "H" barrel fitted, but said barrel had been stored with the traditional "oily rag" stuffed into the muzzle; the oil dried out, a bit of humidity got in and, over the next twenty years, the muzzle developed nasty pitting back about half an inch. That otherwise nice "H" barrel was swapped over to a a mate's "sporter" that had a very "crisp" standard barrel on a "customized"- everything rifle. He just lopped off the last inch or so and re-crowned it and, thus, has a perfectly good "bush rifle" again. (Old-school "Field" brand side-mount, late-'60s? Redfield scope).