INTERESTING PHOTO WW1

Photo sent to me by Nigel Eyre of 2 Scots Guards, who doesn't know who they are.
This looks to me like a sniper course from circa WW1 with the Sergeant in the centre. Sadly no badges or collar dogs to try and identify the unit.
Could be Edinburgh Castle looking at the background..............variation of belts worn in the shot could signify the Regiments, haversack/scopes slung over their shoulders!!.........anybody any thoughts. Two Leather scope containers on the deck.
Could be wrong but didn't the Black Watch have an S style belt catch?

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Originally Posted by Gil Boyd

Could be wrong but didn't the Black Watch have an S style belt catch?

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Nice rifles... I thought that was just the Oliver pattern equipment?

Jim,
You could be right, but I believe we had an expert on the site who knew all about the belts and kit they wore in 1914-18. Hopefully he might pick up on this for the answers.;)
The lad seated on the left appears to have a tartan kilt on the others one plain colour

Pattern 1914 equipment used the S shaped buckle. See karkeeweb.com.

Thanks for that and very interesting under that link to Pattern 1914 equipment, where an image shows the S belt buckle being worn, says it was make primarily for "Pipers and Range Takers". Range Takers I know were trained units attached to the Royal Artillery and Machine Gun Corps, and I suppose it makes some form of Military sense that men with that capability of assessing ranges would train as snipers if they were good shots. Anyone with Military knowledge over that period that might shed some light on that, esp[ecially with the Scottish Regimental connection? There was of course an over kilt used in WW1 made of cloth/canvas to keep the mud off so that may explain the plain kilts in the photograph!!!

Interesting reference here to Range Takers in the Canadian Orbats including the Royal Highlanders Regiment:

The formation of Brigade Machine Gun Companies
was authorized by Special Army Order on October 22nd 1915.
Authority was given for the formation of the 7th Brigade Machine Gun Coy by the Canadian Corps on March 3rd 1916.
The 7th Canadian Infantry Brigade of the 3rd Canadian Division comprised.
The Royal Canadian Regiment.
Princess Patricias Canadian Light Infantry.
42nd Canadian Battalion.
Royal Highlanders of Canada.
49th Canadian Battalion. Edmonton Regiment.
The Brigade was commanded by Brigadier General F.O.W. Loomis D.S.O.

The scheme of organization was that Lewis Guns would replace the Machine Guns in the Battalions and that the Battalion Machine Gun Section personnel, transport, and
everything would be withdrawn from their Battalions and form the Brigade Machine Gun Company.

This however was modified and drafts from England were sent with a nucleus of the Battalion Machine Gunners to the Brigade Machine Gun Company the exact proportion
being left to the discretion of the Brigadiers.
The Brigade Machine Gun officer automatically commanded the Machine Gun Company.
The Company was divided into Headquarters and four sections, with the following establishment.

Major or Captain

8 Subalterns.

1 Company Quartermaster Sergeant.

1 Transport Sergeant.

8 Sergeants.

8 Corporals.

1 Artificer.

1 Shoeing Smith.

4 Signallers.

8 Scouts.

8 Range Takers.

1 Storeman.

2 Cooks.

9 Batmen.

22 Drivers.

64 Gunners.

2 R.A.M.C. attached.

1 A.S.C. attached.

9 Riding horses.

43 Light draugh horses.

2 Heavy draugh horses.

4 Bicycles.

12 G.S. Limbered Wagons.

1 Cooks Cart.

1 G.S. Wagon.

A Captain or Lieutenant 2nd in Command with

batman and horse was added.

And a saddler was added on April 15th 1916.

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Originally Posted by Gil Boyd

the plain kilts in the photograph

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I was in a Highland Regt for my last few years, the canvas cover was tan color and this kilt of apparently plain wool...I'd bet has a pattern but we can't see it.

My grandfather was in a highland regiment before and during WWI. Kilt aprons were worn over the kilts in the trenches, during training and working parties, but those lads aren't wearing them. I suspect the tartan is a dark on dark one, i.e. Black Watch or similar. None of them is wearing a hackle either. The Lovat Scouts wore checkered band Balmorals so it is unlikely they are Lovats.

From the chips and scars in the masonry it's probably taken in France or Belgium. The censor looks to have painted out their cap badges.

Its a very formal and carefully positioned shot though IMHO. Taken with what appears to be time on their hands, so I naturally went for Edinburgh Castle as they were all Scots and looked fairly relaxed.
Perhaps someone who was stationed there might recognise the doorway?? or could they be Black and Tans with no identification marks on their kit? The truth is out there, just finding the right person to see the photo. ;)

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Originally Posted by Paul S.

I suspect the tartan is a dark on dark one

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I tend to think so...

The picture is of a full SOS squad, 12 men, so 1916 at the earliest.

The first schools were in France and Belgium. Each army of the British Expeditionary Force had its own Scouting, Observation and Sniping school.

There’s a very clear message in the location of those telescope containers.

With all due respect, I don't think it is that formal a photo as the chap who is front and center is wearing fingerless gloves, and the chap in the third row left is wearing gloves as well. The state of the boots also doesn't suggest any time for spit and polish. The rifle is a MkIII*, so that should help to date the photo somewhat. The sergeant's stripes look farther up his arms than is sometimes seen, a uniform peculiarity that might tell something? Old stone sometimes does scab off, but to me that looks like blast damage, particularly the deep one on the front face of the wall.

Hesketh Prichard refered, without naming names of course, to the PPCo. as a telescope that should never have been accepted for service. The windage capstans were a particular issue: shooting loose and requiring a tiny pin to insert into the equally tiny holes on the capstans to tighten them again, a process which inevitably moved the reticule left or right, requiring re-zeroing. Though compared to the other tribulations of service in that war...

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Originally Posted by Surpmil

From the chips and scars in the masonry it's probably taken in France or Belgium. The censor looks to have painted out their cap badges.

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My grandfather did a stint as a censor whilst recovering from wounds the second time he was wounded. My sister has, and is selfishly hoarding boxes of the photos he set aside for his personal collection. All of them have his initials and censor stamp stating that they may be released for publication. Not one of them has cap badges or formation insignia blacked out or covered.

Looking at the picture in question, one can just see the shape of a metal tab on the epaulets of some of the troops. It appears as a small rectangle. I believe it may be a 'CANADA'. I recently read that some Canadian 'Scottish' battalions wore Khaki Balmoral bonnets. Hazarding a guess based upon that, I wonder if they are Canadians, circa 1916.

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Originally Posted by Paul S.

some Canadian 'Scottish' battalions wore Khaki Balmoral bonnets

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My last unit, a reserve unit now, still wears a Khaki Balmoral...they were the 16th CEF for the first war. You guys understand the hatbadge is over the left ear on this headress? You can't see them from here anyway, they aren't blacked out or deleted. You can't see them.

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Originally Posted by Surpmil

With all due respect, I don't think it is that formal a photo as the chap who is front and center is wearing fingerless gloves, and the chap in the third row left is wearing gloves as well. The state of the boots also doesn't suggest any time for spit and polish. The rifle is a MkIII*, so that should help to date the photo somewhat. The sergeant's stripes look farther up his arms than is sometimes seen, a uniform peculiarity that might tell something? Old stone sometimes does scab off, but to me that looks like blast damage, particularly the deep one on the front face of the wall.

Hesketh Prichard refered, without naming names of course, to the PPCo. as a telescope that should never have been accepted for service. The windage capstans were a particular issue: shooting loose and requiring a tiny pin to insert into the equally tiny holes on the capstans to tighten them again, a process which inevitably moved the reticule left or right, requiring re-zeroing. Though compared to the other tribulations of service in that war...

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My formal comment really referred to the way the lads had clearly set themselves out on the steps and seating with the Sergeant in the middle or course instructor...........exactly what we tended to do 100 years later, not to their dress as they look like they have just got in from the ranges on a cold wet day;)

I am not sure it’s a school picture. Look at their hands. You just don’t put your hands on another man’s shoulders if you don’t know him well, especially a superior. I think there’s quite a bit of familiarity/comradery between some of them. More than I would expect to see between students and an instructor. I would say it’s more likely to be an SOS squad that’s seen action and the Sargent is well liked by the men. Just a guess. I could be wrong.

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Originally Posted by Vincent

The picture is of a full SOS squad, 12 men, so 1916 at the earliest.

The first schools were in France and Belgium. Each army of the British Expeditionary Force had its own Scouting, Observation and Sniping school.

There’s a very clear message in the location of those telescope containers.

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Perhaps you could share that message? :sos:

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Originally Posted by Vincent

Look at their hands.

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That sort of thing is arranged by the Photog, not the men. The Photog will tell you feet right over left, hands like this...that man over there move in...

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Originally Posted by Merle

Perhaps you could share that message? :sos:

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I was thinking they didn’t much care for them. Who knows. Maybe the photographer told them to throw them in the dirt.

It has been a few decades since I read Hesketh-Prichard’s sniping book. IIRC, there was whinging about some of the telescopes.

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Originally Posted by Paul S.

My grandfather did a stint as a censor whilst recovering from wounds the second time he was wounded. My sister has, and is selfishly hoarding boxes of the photos he set aside for his personal collection. All of them have his initials and censor stamp stating that they may be released for publication. Not one of them has cap badges or formation insignia blacked out or covered.

Looking at the picture in question, one can just see the shape of a metal tab on the epaulets of some of the troops. It appears as a small rectangle. I believe it may be a 'CANADA'. I recently read that some Canadian 'Scottish' battalions wore Khaki Balmoral bonnets. Hazarding a guess based upon that, I wonder if they are Canadians, circa 1916.

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That's interesting, but what army did he serve in? If he was able to stamp photos as passed it would make sense to "pass" those he kept for his personal collection, for obvious reasons.

My guess is these fellows are "Imperials" and I suspect one of the battalions of the Black Watch.

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Originally Posted by browningautorifle

...You guys understand the hatbadge is over the left ear on this headress? You can't see them from here anyway, they aren't blacked out or deleted. You can't see them.

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If the cap badges are not obscured deliberately, then why can we not see a single glint from any of them, even though the angle of the balmorals on some of the men clearly indicate that we should? Blackened badges? I haven't seen any for WWI Scottish regiments myself.

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Originally Posted by Surpmil

If the cap badges are not obscured deliberately, then why can we not see a single glint from any of them

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Hard to say...for you. Here's the first three that fell into my hands...for Canada.

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Originally Posted by browningautorifle

Hard to say...for you. Here's the first three that fell into my hands...for Canada.

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Well those are nice badges Jim, but are they blackened badges or just badges that haven't been polished in a century or so?

Regardless, I don't believe those are Canadian soldiers, so anyone got some blackened badges for a British kilted regiment from WWI?

My Grandfather, Salisbury Plain 1914: Attachment 80327
He's second from the right.

Adding to the discussion, each of the NCOs in the above picture is wearing a kilt apron. Notice there is a pocket on the apron taking the place of the traditional sporran.

Surpmil, it is possible that the cap badges were removed as they typically were and are today. That would explain why only the cockade is visible.

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Originally Posted by Surpmil

are they blackened badges

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You're kidding...right?

A bit of internet digging reveals that according to the fellow who sold the photo on eBay in 2008, the sniper section is from the 9th (Service) Battalion, The Black Watch. The other markings on the photo reportedly said it was taken "on the steps of Arras Cathedral" in 1918. It's not Arras Cathedral as that is a neo-classical building, but no doubt another church in Arras. A soldier might assume a church was a cathedral, but he's not likely to get the town wrong.

There's a thread featuring the photo here, and the reason we can't see their badges is that battalion seems to have worn only the hackle in the front line. Not surprising since their silvered cap badges would make a fine aiming point for a German sniper.

This is when I point out that the Black Watch traditionally wore its cab badge only on/with a Glengarry. The Red hackle was/is worn with the Balmoral or TOS without a cap badge or backing.

I'm not sure what they do now that they and the other Scottish infantry regiments have been (shamefully in my opinion) amalgamated by MOD into one 'mega regiment'.

Mind you, the Royal Highland Regiment of Canada (The Black Watch of Canada) is a separate entity. They continue the above traditional wear of hackle or cap badge.