Hi all,
Just joined after reading the posts on these rifles, it seems the thread on the numbers list is no longer open but is a up to date list available ?
To add I have the Pecar scope 533 from the Sheffield police rifle.
Regards. Chris.
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Hi all,
Just joined after reading the posts on these rifles, it seems the thread on the numbers list is no longer open but is a up to date list available ?
To add I have the Pecar scope 533 from the Sheffield police rifle.
Regards. Chris.
Chris, Welcome to Milsurps, one thing I would point out, Police are not Snipers they are Marksmen.......
Not sure what you mean by "no longer open".. :confused:Quote:
Originally Posted by Yorkshirechris
If you're referring to this "sticky" thread, it is open for reading and posting.. :thup:
Service for L42A1, Enforcer, Envoy and L39A1 Owners
Regards,
Doug
ps: please don't post the same question in multiple forums, as it wastes time and gets very confusing for people trying to help you.. thanks.. :cheers:
Hi, thanks for the "head up" just a newbe trying to work it out !,Quote:
Originally Posted by bigduke6
Regards. Chris.
I agree with Big Duke, thread 2. I would categorise the Police as good shots as opposed to marksmen.
I'd probably question the "good shot" bit too:)
Does anyone know if the U.K. Police ever used the L.E. No4 mk2 service rifle in standard form, i.e. with no scope fitted and no provision for fitting one, at any time in history, please?
Flying10uk,
With the title of a "bloody good shot" when I left the Army, and joined the civvy Police and had to reduce my title to what is commonly known as only a "good shot":bow:, I can confirm they certainly did hold No4's well before my time of joining. The Enforcer was the only scoped rifle in use under Home Office Guidelines.
Right the way through and after WW2, the No4 rifle was the weapon of choice in the UK by many Forces for the longer reach operations, there was very little else with its proven track record for reliability and accuracy, and ammunition at .303 was plentiful. To the best of my knowledge no scopes were fitted in the photographs I have seen in various Police Firearms units of the time, and if they did it was a local thing.
Bear in mind many, what we term as "Police Firearms Units" today were not formed until the very late 60's and early seventies due primarily to answer the NI troubles on mainland UK, and the sieges that followed. It was this era that pushed the moves to equip Forces with a replacement rifle...........enter the Enforcer.......a Police Marksmans rifle who was already a good established shot from previous Army service in the main, we did have the odd Royal Marine :surrender:
They certainly used No4's F10, I would imagine both mk1 and mk2's
The RUC used them and they were avalable for use by mainland police forces too, I don't know how many used them though?
Back in the 1970's a local farmer to me had to call out a Police Marksmen with a No4 to "despatch" a totally crazy breeding bull that went on the rampage... Big game hunting in the Cotswolds!
To be absolutely honest, many of our jobs were crazed bulls that had escaped from abatoirs and run amock in towns. We soon learnt that Hatton rounds delivered by shotguns were the only way to stop them dead, right between the eyes..........however, you had to be very brave
7.62 simply didnt stop them and bounced off with no effect:yikes:
Very thick sculls Gil, I believe they went for heart and lungs shots around here ... Several of them, crazy takes some stopping, even when rule .303 is applied!
The reason that I ask is that I have a U.K. deactivated No4 mk2 with the normal U.K. military markings etc that would be expected but it is the only No4 rifle that I have seen with a butt disc. This butt disc is made of plastic but appears professionally fitted by inletting it into the butt and it has a number marked on it, presumably a rack/armoury number. I will try to post some pictures later when I get time, perhaps at the end of the week. This deac is quite precious to me because it was the first one that I purchased and it is a fully matching numbers rifle apart from the mag; even the wood is number matching. It doesn't appear to have had too much heavy use, it's just used.
Sounds interesting F10, please do post pics, it's worth remembering that your rife might have served with any of a very large number of countries, so it could be a foreign rack number...
Here are some pictures of my U.K. deactivated No4 mk2 rifle and it is a 1996 dated deac. As mentioned previously it is the only No4 rifle that I've ever seen with a butt disc and while I could have removed it, it seemed better to leave it as is, part of the rifle's history. I did wonder if this butt disc was fitted by a Police force or a Private School's Combined Cadet Force but this is pure speculation on my part. Whoever did the deactivation work got a little carried away, because the locking lug has been completely removed from the bolt, as can be seen in the picture. :yikes: Any further information relating to this rifle is greatly received, thanks. :cool:
Interesting F10, assuming the rifle hasn't been restored, I would say taking it's general excellent cosmetic condition into account, its service must have been very brief.Quote:
Originally Posted by Flying10uk
I wonder if there's a Maritime connection here, the rack number and excellent condition perhaps relating to a ships armoury??
I don't think that it's ever been restored; all I've ever done to it is give it a clean and an occasional oil. There doesn't appear to be any foreign markings on it which I can see.
A great deal of care is taken when these number plates are sunk into butts, so one has to, from that, assume it was in a rack, honed to an individual who could abstract it easily. From there its just guess work as to where or who would have done that. We have all our weapons numerically plated in The Parachute Regiment museum and that is so members of the public can refer to them easily from a description card nearby which I feel might be the explanantion in your rifle.
Certainly, IMHO I wouldn't see that happening in an Army unit generally, but Armourers on here may be able to help.
CCF/ACF units maybe if it was deactivated at the time and only used for acquaintance use!
Marking like that, by routing the butt would not be permitted in the Army/forces generally in my opinion. Maybe we're getting a bit carried away...... It looks like a normal rifle club rifle to me. Ex-Military, a lick of varnish over poorly finished wood and paint over the bare patches. I'd like to see more of what is/seems to be under the quick paint job - last 2x photos, 13 - 14
A few decades years ago there was a batch of century imports, well worn No 4 MK II and No 4 MK I that has been "sanitized" and re-serialized. These rifles, I saw 4 of them over a ten year period were late 40s PF I/II guns which had the marking removed as sell as one Longbranch. The one thing that was identical was each of the buttstocks had a metal disc inletted into the buttock, much like the trials No 1 Mk VI and No 4 Mk IV rifles.
The best I was able to track down was these were surplused out of Rhodesia around 1996 to 1998. The chai who told me that said thee came out with ex-police stocks including a bunch of 1970s Auto 5 riot shotguns. I believe the arms were used by the BSAP or its successor, though I saw speculation they were supplied by SA post embargo (1965?), pre the large shipment of ex-Portuguese G3 rifles (1976?). In any case some No4 in colonial service did have discs inletted in them.
Here's another couple of pictures showing the slight change/difference in paint which I think Peter was referring to in his last post. This is a U.K. deactivated rifle and so when it was deactivated, to comply with the law and spec part of the deac work was to cross-drill the chamber, fit a hardened pin and then weld in place. This is in addition to the chamber and most of the barrel having a longitudinal slot cut along its length. The chamber slot on this particular deac looks relatively wide, possibly cut with an angle grinder which obviously generates heat as it cuts.
I believe that the slightly different shade (matt) of black paint which I've pointed out with the pen tip is where the paintwork has been touched up following the welding of the cross pin and slotting of the chamber.
I am not David Bailey and I am only just about capable of using a digital camera and so my photographs will not always be perfect. The woodwork is not as shiny, in real life, as it may appear in the pictures; the camera flash may make it look more glossy than it actually is. I don't believe that the woodwork has ever been lacquered but it may have had a wax polish. Possibly this was done by a dealer to try to "smarten it up" and encourage a sale?
Probably just finished with boiled (instead of raw) linseed oil, it builds into a rather semi glos hard varnish type finish.
A slightly amusing footnote to my No4 mk2 deac, pictured in Post 14 is that, years ago when I was considering buying it, the dealer who sold it to me told me that all No4 rifle production ended in 1945. He went on to state that this was because so many No4 rifles had been produced during the war that no further examples were required but some, like the one he was selling to me, were returned to the factory to be reconditioned. I find this amusing because just about everything he said about it was incorrect; either he was talking B.S. or he was totally ignorant of the facts.
Unfortunately F10, quite a few dealer's don't let a trivial thing like a lack of basic knowledge, or the plain honest truth get in the way of a sale ... Buyer beware has never been truer...
I have spent range time with a three muni. police "snipers". All three were exceptional shots and I am very critical about using the word exceptional. I do know there are many police that believe they are good shots but in reality stink at best, even if they are on a tactical team.Quote:
Originally Posted by muffett.2008
One I shot with is IMO a exceptional police officer and was the only one in his class to pass with 100% at Quantico which included a crawl to within 100 yards of the target to take "the shot". The crawl across the field was being observed by two spotters who would call to instructors in the field attempting to locate the shooter, they failed spotting one shooter, one of the guys I shot with.
The issue with most is the lack of trigger time on a very regular basis. If you don't spend countless hours practicing you will never be that good. The three I shot with practice a inordinate amount and it showed.
A person must also be in good physical condition, a overweight out of shape cop will NEVER be very good, let alone exceptional.
PS
Most police forces want the "shot" to be taken at 100 yards of less, the military expects a sniper to be able to shoot at much greater distances.
The copper that taught me to shoot as a teenager was pretty good, he was one of the original cadre of Met.Police D11 instructors trained by the British Army, and one of the first to deploy with an Enforcer at the Balcombe Street siege in 1975, about 6 months before I started to learn to shoot at the small-bore rifle club that he helped run for service and ex-service Met.Police and their families.Quote:
Originally Posted by muffett.2008