Prototype .22 No5 Rifle.

This rifle should not be confused with the .22 No5 trials rifle as it appears to pre-date it.
This rifle has a serial number SH3 over 25, it has been with the owner since the 1960's and he says that as far as he is aware it is one of a batch of 25 and the only example in the UK with possibly two more somewhere in the USA.
There are no marks on it other than the serial number and BSA on the butt plate.
I have taken pictures of all of the main features including some for comparison next to my No8 rifle, I have also included pictures of the bolts from a No7 and No8 rifle, the prototype bolt is always at the top.
The rearsight is a twin zero type and appears to be made for the rifle, it is fixed in the upright position on the rear of the receiver which to my mind would make it rather vulnerable to damage, the trials rifle has the fold flat arrangement that we are more used to.
There are features that are recognisable in the No7 rifle including the ejector plate and the bolt head that is slightly longer than the No7 but still has the auxillary extractor.
There are considerable differences to the machining to the rear of the action to allow the rear sight to be mounted. The single shot loading platform is spring loaded and is held in place by a flat spring and a plate in the base of the magazine well, centre pop marks on the loading platform show where it was marked out before filing to shape.
The butt plate is black plastic but with a solid steel core which is unlike the standard version that is solid plastic.

What a neat little rifle, I had a couple of #8's through time. Wish we'd known where the price on them would be today. Besides, they shot so very nicely.

it is interesting that they used the butt stock off a late no4 pattern BSA factory sporter (commercial rifle).

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo.../LUFSud1-1.jpg
(the rifle pictured belongs to a gent named roy)

Thats a very nice .22!
Last October there was a bolt for a .22 No5 trials rifle for sale in France. Not sure if it sold. The owner did not know what rifle it was for. Would be nice to find the rifle to go with it!

For anyone interested, the link below has details of the .22 No5 trials as Buccaneer mentions.

http://www.rifleman.org.uk/Enfield_Rifle_No.5.html

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Originally Posted by bigduke6

the link below

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Has some very neat and interesting rifles too...

Tend to agree with you on it being an earlier variation.....however, we both could be wrong as it is a Lee Enfield.
Attached is a photo of a pair of No.5 .22 rifles and the stock on one is almost a dead ringer for our mystery rifle. The other has a military pattern butt however with a checkered grip.
I'll take a couple of shots of the actions later today or tomorrow, but just no time right now.
I just dropped in to see what was new.
Attachment 80506

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Originally Posted by browningautorifle

What a neat little rifle, I had a couple of #8's through time. Wish we'd known where the price on them would be today. Besides, they shot so very nicely.

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They certainly do Jim, in fact won me a gold medal in a League on the Rifleman.org site, link below if you scroll down to Service class , I'm in Division 2 not the best of scores but all good fun, if you look at the winner in Div 1 he also uses a No8 ......

http://www.rifleman.org.uk/HARC%20Fi...sults15-16.pdf

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Originally Posted by bigduke6

if you look at the winner in Div 1 he also uses a No8

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I did well too, my biggest competitor was a weapon's tech that had built his own #7 and the rest used stock #7s. When there was a protest, I beat it with "The sight picture was the same"...they didn't know about the adjustable trigger. It was army competition after all...Battalion...

I have my doubts about these BSA 'No5.22" variants. BSA made the No5's and 8's as contractors for the old MoS. Nothing more nor less. They'd already had their bottoms kicked for over manufacture and selling the No8's plus spare parts for several years to NZ and others*. The WD/MoS had their ideas for the No2 rifle replacement and selected 2(?) types/styles for the trials and these long and short versions are well known about. Fazakerley also put a very simple design forwards based on nothing more than a single feed .22" No5. Like most things Fazakerley, it was a waste of time........!
*Others unidentified as yet

I think that the odd No5/8 versions that come from BSA were really nothing more than commercial efforts by BSA to compete in the small bore market in the UK without treading on the toes of the MoS and the designers at the old Enfield design office at Cheshunt who held the IPR's to the trigger mech and action generally. Just my opinion based on the UK MoS trials papers and handbook we had. On the other hand, it was perfectly acceptable for the MoS and Enfield to tread on the Sterling designers toes and pirate their designs........

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Originally Posted by Peter Laidler

nothing more than commercial efforts by BSA to compete in the small bore market

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Are you suggesting these were simply assembled by BSA from existing parts for civilian sales then? Perhaps?

I suppose the answer to your question is yes BAR. Simply because the MoS spec had already been laid down, the new trigger mech already patented, rifles made for trials, one type already accepted (by 1951)........ Only my view of course. But none of these several variations that have cropped up in the past seem to fit into the No8 trials frame as we know it according to the documented trials examples (at the PR and Warminster) and the paperwork

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Originally Posted by browningautorifle

Are you suggesting these were simply assembled by BSA from existing parts for civilian sales then? Perhaps?

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That's an interesting thought as I know that the owner of this rifle is convinced that it is "genuine" he has even told me that the Pattern Room would like to get their hands on it but as Peter has pointed out if BSA were making up rifles for the commercial market who knows what configuration they cold have been built in.
The only official mark of any description is on the bolt in the form of a pair of crossed banners just before the serial number stamp but the bolt could have come from anywhere, if this really was a pre trials prototype should it at least have some other marks, and why build 25 if the number on the butt socket actually stands for the total number built?

I'm thinking along the lines that following the completion of the MoS contract (was it 9,700 each by BSA and Faz - or total. I forget without the papers handy) BSA touted their own wares to the trade, individuals and the Nat SmallBore RA asking for orders. While these 'new' BSA rifles might incorporate many of the No7 and 8 features, they couldn't incorporate the No8 specifics such as the trigger mech, bolt and platform that were subject to MoS patents. That seems to be the reason there are quite a few variables. While the Army trials at Hythe only trialled the long and short barrel types. There were other options trialled but these were cosmetics, such as fore-end styles and chequering formats which Fazakerley were not able to incorporate into series production as I seem to recall.

Incidentally, service users of the No8, including Cadet Forces could quote a little understood and known about section from the 1936 ER's and purchase a rifle from the War Dept. The price for a No8 rifle was listed as £22.

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Originally Posted by Buccaneer

the owner of this rifle is convinced that it is "genuine" he has even told me that the Pattern Room would like to get their hands on it

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If they don't have one, then I'd think it's not strictly kosher...?

thats one neat .22!

The more I look at the photos, the more I'm convinced that it is a BSA(?) project to commercialise their small bore production line as best they could using what was there. The No7 ejector for example. They couldn't use the combined loading platform/ejector of the No8 as this feature was protected by patent. It certainly looks like a No8 butt that has been re-profiled too. A simple job and also a feature of nearby P-H 'sporting' rifles of the 50's. The body is a bit of an enigma as it looks like a mix of a No4 and No5 spec.

I can't see a backsight bed like that, held in place with 4x(?) 6BA screws lasting more than 10 minutes - or 5 minutes on a good day - during any UK trial.

Nope, just another atempt at BSA to capitalise in the commercial world

The butt plate looks like a standard No8 butt plate. We used to see these marked with the BSA logo, DRC, LRC and no mark. They were rubber with the steel insert. Later ones were neoprene and later repros were the hard plastic - and FAR better than the original rubber and neoprene! If you made off the butts by taking the heel and toe down a bit and then tried to fit a butt plate you had to take the rubber down a bit.......... But not too much otherwise you'd get to the steel plate and that meant the butt plate was knackered. It also meant that your work on the butt was wasted too because the next butt plate would inevitably be oversize too - and need taking down with the same result.

I had a quick squint at this thread when Buccaneer first started it, but have only just found a moment to look at the photo's carefully. I'm glad I did as I now know what my mystery bolt is that is similar to but not the same as, No7 & No8 bolts, that has been scuffing about in a drawer for decades!

Comments on the hybrid body DRP?

Yep, I acquired a couple of the shortened bolt bodies at about the same time, thinking 'great! That's two really useful No7 bolt bodies to keep for a rainy day!'. Trying to fit a No7 bolt head soon disabused me.....

Er............I meant the hybrid No4/No5 RIFLE body used!!!!! Sorry, breakdown in communication

Whoops! Yes, see what you mean now. Yes, no cut-off block a la No5 & no lightening cuts at the rear of the body a la No4.
They went to an awful lot of trouble to incorporate that worm-wheel dovetail arrangement for the target sight.........

I have just bumped into an article at http://www.rifleman.org.uk/Enfield Rifle No.6.html which shows this rifle as part of the "No6" rifle story. It's well worth a read.

interesting read , i would love to find one to add to the collection but prefer to get a nice no8 first , very interesting