Tin of 'paint'

Good evening this is my first post here, but since finding milsurps I have been reading many of the archived threads and have to admit to nipping very impressed at the friendly nature of the people on here and the depth of knowledge.

I have 3 Brens, 2 I've had for a while the other a recent addition. The most recent one is what looks to be quite an original 1940 Mk1 with all matching numbers including the barrel. The finish is however VERY worn, so am pondering refinishing it. I assume that it would have come out of the factory blued?. Back in the early 80's in the Army Cadets the SKN's and Mk3 live firers I used all,seemed to have a very thick painted finish, presumably this was applied during the many years that they were in service by armourers?.

Some years ago I was given a litre tin of paint, the guy who it came from said 'it was the stuff that army used to paint guns with' not sure if this is correct because the labels have been pulled off. It's red with a screw top, the paint is the foulest smelling stuff but once it's been shook up and stirred up it is fantastic, brushed onto bare metal it gives a perfect Matt finish (the job does however stink for weeks after). The finish I saw on those old cadet Brens was a little satin looking, as is on my L59A1 whereas this lethal brew I have gives a Matt looking finish, wondering if this is the same stuff used on the cadet weapons but I am not applying it correctly?

Welcome to the forum, are you referring to Suncorite paint that was applied after Phosphate or bluing? I think it's still available, there are others here that can say where if it is.

The Correct Paint is Suncorite 259. Manufactured by Henkel Chemicals originally. & You are quite correct, it does indeed give off VERY distinct & hazardous fumes!.....

You should SPRAY it on your guns OUTSIDE. The Army does it in a spray booth. & bakes for 30 mins to harden the finish.

I take it by your forum title of 'Rag Top'. You also collect ex military vehicles?......If so, there is also a section here on the forum.
Of that Subject, which will interest you no doubt?

I've a feeling Henkel stopped making it a few years ago. I tried to do a small group buy for 1 Ltr tins about 8 years ago and then they emailed to say that they were going to suspend production.

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A 1940 Mk1 would have been browned and subsequently refinished in Sunc. Irrelevant of the Gun Mk, Certain parts were not authorised to be painted (i.e. the barrel) until much later (1970s?). Peter L has an encyclopaedic memory of these EMERS.

PS, what s the number of your gun?

Thanks for the replies. I really do not know what the paint is, I've had it for about 20 years and it is so noxious that if I use it I have to use it outdoors and leave the work in the shed for a week or two before bring it in the house. A work mate and former REME armourer says it sounds like the stuff they used to use but is banned now, however I can't understand why the finish ends up so different.

Yes tankhunter, ragtop comes from me owning a Land Rover Wolf soft top.

Sunkorite was made under licence by a few suppliers including Trimite, Glassurit and another who's name I have forgotten. Anyway....... The trouble with your tin is that sunkorite has a shelf life because it it heavy and as it settles, it separates. In fact it would separate during the day while in tye spray gun. That's why it was always being stirred and the reason why you can get a finish from shiny to dull deep matt black. It should be a satin finish and baked. If you don't bake it, don't bother because it will never cure properly.

It's fairly toxic but nothing to be a woos about......... Our Armourers shops used to smell of the stuff but by the same token, we all had a big drum of trichlorethylene in the shops too...... You can thin it down using industrial CLEAR methylated spirit. But look......., if it's gone solid at the bottom, don't even bother to use it and you can shake it until the cows come home but it ain't going to mix again.

You really need to strip your gun to do it properly. You could get away with bead blasting the gun and repainting it in Land Rover exhaust manifold paint - and then bake it in the over. No bake = no use!

Let's have the numbers of your guns

Its still available on that auction site...... 1ltr tins, I stocked up on a few last year.

When I need to bake paint onto items I use the oven on my domestic cooker but, obviously, you can only bake small parts in that, not a complete Bren receiver body. Also you tend to make yourself rather unpopular with other members of the household :crying: because as the paint is baked, it tends to stink the house out. The fumes given off by baking the paint are likely to be toxic :nono: so adequate ventilation MUST be provided by opening windows and doors to prevent a build-up of fumes in the house. :thup:

One of these days I'll take you on a nostalgic memorable journey through a huge Base Workshop Armourers and A-vehicle (tank) shop F-10. H&S was in its infancy in the late 70's or so and the uncovered trichlorethylene vapour tank would swallow a complete Merlin/Meteor engine PLUS my complete MGB GT V8 front crossmember. and rear axle. And the paint bays stretched for 40 yards - including the sunkorite bays that sprayed and baked said crossmember and axle. We didn't need to wash our hands..........we just dipped them in the tricho tank. I suppose our one concession was that we opened the windows. And so far as I know, we're all still here complete with all of our marbles........ It's all about ........ just thinking of the word.........

The trouble is these days that unless you constantly cover your back when you give advice or make suggestions, people who make mistakes caused by their own stupidity are likely to look for someone else to blame, especially if there is financial benefit in it for them.


Some years ago one of the classic car clubs ran a series of articles describing in detail how to rebuild the engine in your classic car but the author of the article didn't consider it necessary to actually state "when you have finished rebuilding your engine and reinstalled it in your car remember to refill it with engine oil". Off course some idiot rebuilt his engine, as described, but forgot to put any oil in the engine before running it and wrecked his engine. He then had the cheek to claim that it was the author and the clubs fault that his new engine was damaged because the article didn't actually state "put oil in your engine". He then went on to try to claim compensation from the club and possibly the author but I don't know if he had any success.

* I forget which classic car club this story relates to but it was some years ago now.

My penath worth .. 21 years as a refinisher, quite a bit of experience of refinishing firearms over the last five years.


Careful strip, thorough preparation, 800 wet or dry, then red scotchbrite to get into all the edges.

Then clean with a good quality degreaser and mask off as required, I use good quality spray can primer and paint (Kent industries products), used sparingly, just enough to cover, flash off with a heat gun, gentle key with scotchbrite, blow off and a few coats of Matt black, again just enough to cover, flashed off between coats with the heat gun.

Leave overnight, then gently polish with a microfiber cloth to the correct satin finish.

The main points are really careful and presise preparation and don't use too much paint and primer, do it right and it will look great and really last on live Firearms and deacs .. too much paint and it won't dry property or last.

Do you know what the name is of a modern equivalent of Suncorite is, please, or a good alternative?

Been doing a bit of cleaning today. Quite dirty, been using 4x2 with Youngs .303 and some very fine wire wool and am quite pleased with it. Yes it is very worn but clean and worn with no surface but it kind of looks good as it is in a way so may not refinish it after all. The wood was as black as coal but after cleaning with meths and wire wool ithrn brywaxing it all looks like walnut again and have uncovered the stacked rifle marks of BSA along with a number of inspectors stamps in various places.

Britplummer- the finish does have quite a brown hue to it albeit worn.

My gun numbers are:

Enfield Mk1 1940 D8956
Inglis Mk1m 1941 N2790
Enfield Mk3 1949 LB38428

The paint probably is Suncorite, must say though after copious stirring and shaking it does reconstitute to a workable covering, finish is more like phosphate rather than the satin effect of suncorite almost like brunofix (if that's how it's spelt) the nearest I have seen to it was on a No4T..

Ah sorry- missed Peters earlier note about not baking it, that's correct I just agitated it to a reasonable consistency, brush painted it on then let it dry in the sun. Must say though, our oven is not big enough for a Bren body with a barrel attached and besides anything else Mrs. Ragtop would have had a fair bit to say about putting guns in her new oven let alone sticking the house out. With varous militaria around the house and a Land Rover in the garage I really do no need to be uspsetting the apple cart.

If sunkorite is new - or at least fully and PROPERLY mixed - you can have it decanted into aerosol cans by the paint mixers who do this sort of thing. But DO NOT leave the plastic spray head on the can unless it has been cleaned and pricked clear. Or just ask the canner for a few spare spray heads

Good point Peter, I have had Olive Drab in cans before, so Suncorite (or a single pack equivalent) should't be an issue too.

It would certainly be more usable for most people in this format and applied finely atomised it would work extremely well.

in reply to post 10

It is an unfortunate fact that these days. Stupid people get better service from the courts! those that work for an honest living often get shafted!
The richer they are, the richer they become! just because they can afford better lawyers.
I've been in the motor trade for over 35 years; it's getting ridiculous; to the point that we cannot actually offer the real customer service as we did in the old days.

Stupidity is part of the evolutionary process of natural selection!

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Originally Posted by Peter Laidler

One of these days I'll take you on a nostalgic memorable journey through a huge Base Workshop Armourers and A-vehicle (tank) shop F-10. H&S was in its infancy in the late 70's or so and the uncovered trichlorethylene vapour tank would swallow a complete Merlin/Meteor engine PLUS my complete MGB GT V8 front crossmember. and rear axle. And the paint bays stretched for 40 yards - including the sunkorite bays that sprayed and baked said crossmember and axle. We didn't need to wash our hands..........we just dipped them in the tricho tank. I suppose our one concession was that we opened the windows. And so far as I know, we're all still here complete with all of our marbles........ It's all about ........ just thinking of the word.........

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Peter

I worked in several car bodyshops in the late 60's and early 70's. Apart from running a big paraffin space heater in the workshop in winter with fumes around (and getting the last out of the acetylene bottles in winter by aiming the space heater at them :lol: ) , there was always a 10 or 15 gallon drum of cellulose gun wash open (and we all smoked in those days).

We inevitably got paint on our hands one way or the other, so yep, we just dunked them in the gun wash drum to wash them.

And yes, I am still here too..........:lol:

Are you prepared to personally indemnify other Forum members when they offer advice to others then? If you are, no one needs to worry about including sensible safety precautions in their Posts.

My will to live is going decreasing by the day chaps............ But in the meantime I've got a good idea. Why don't you let us old and bold, been there, done it, got the 'T' shirt and still alive to tell the tale blokes just get on with dishing out our words of unwise or bad wisdom instead of fretting about us and our pending litigation doom.

I didn't bring the subject up again. If I wish to include sensible safety precautions in any of my Post, it's up to me.

Not to hijack this thread, Is there any other method of removing this type of paint without bead blasting?

Thanks in Advance

--fjruple

Once it's been cured properly it really is difficult to remove chemically. There WILL be a chemical somewhere in the universe that will take it off............. Bead blast cabinet is best.

To be really honest, even when our weapons went through the cabinet/booth the paint was never all removed. After that it just went through the phosphate tank - complete with some paint, washed and re-painted without any trouble whatsoever thereafter

I've tried all sorts and nothing I've found touches it. I'm tempted to paint my Teflon non stick pans with it because these pans certainly do not do what it says on the box!

Not the nicest of wiffs when reaching the baking temp, certainly stings the eyes so what it would do to your eggs in the fresh painted pans I don't know......

There are some very strong but effective industrial paint strippers available but they are not very pleasant products to use/handle. I have seen the product used at work and it does remove baked on paint but the fumes given off are extreme and if you do get any on exposed skin, your skin WILL come up in red blisters; I have seen this happen on a number of occasions due to careless handling of the product. Unfortunately I don't know the name of the product but it most certainly would not be available on the high street.

The REAL answer MUST be this........ If the paint is still perfect and adhering to the weapon body, then just leave it. Just bead blast and phosphate the sections that are flaking off - or whatever.

I was just getting ready to crack my last liter tin of Suncorite 259. I've been painting with the wonderful concoction for 20 years. You've seen the job it does in a few photos of Lees and SLR's alike here. When properly stirred and sprayed on over fresh manganese phosphate, I'd have to say that it's not only lovely but probably more rustproof than stainless steel. I admit that my paint booth is outdoors but when I bake it in my garage area, the smell is enlightening. I just open the door for a bit of ventilation and drive on.

Thanks for everyone's feedback on the paint removal problem. I have several P14 rifles that I am restoring which I want to return to their original blued finish. That black paint is tough. I have used a industrial grade paint stripper but I have to used it repeatedly to get the paint off with a stainless steel wire brush.

Thanks again.

--fjruple

Can anyone receoomed a good phosphatimg product?

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Originally Posted by ragtop

Can anyone receoomed a good phosphatimg product?

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What are you planning to do ? there is little or nothing in the UK regarding Parkerising/ Phosphate products, I tend to mix my own, ( and it always varies) the basics are Phosphoric Acid, Manganese dioxide and wire wool......... this gives a grey to black finish.

You can use Zinc oxide instead of the Manganese, this will give a silver to grey finish, never used Zinc as yet.

There is a cold Black oxide kit that is very good that I use on small stuff such as bayonets etc, gives a black finish. see link bellow

Caswell Europe: Online Metal Finishing, Restoration & Renovation products

If we are talking about a phosphating product purely for de-rusting purposes and not for Parkerising, I use Machine Mart's own brand of rust remover. This product is phosphoric acid based and doesn't require washing off with water prior to painting which many other products do. I have a small plastic tank of this liquid and immerse the item that I wish to de-rust in it. I have tried other brands of rust remover but have not found anything which beats Machine Mart's own.

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Originally Posted by bigduke6

What are you planning to do ? there is little or nothing in the UK regarding Parkerising/ Phosphate products, I tend to mix my own, ( and it always varies) the basics are Phosphoric Acid, Manganese dioxide and wire wool......... this gives a grey to black finish.

You can use Zinc oxide instead of the Manganese, this will give a silver to grey finish, never used Zinc as yet.

There is a cold Black oxide kit that is very good that I use on small stuff such as bayonets etc, gives a black finish. see link bellow

Caswell Europe: Online Metal Finishing, Restoration & Renovation products

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I've done a whole Bren body in this same stuff but I got it from here

Frost Metal Blacking Kit and Solutions | Frost Restoration

I think its selenium based and has had bad reports of it just rubbing off but I did the Bren about 6 years ago and it still looks 100%, no rubbing off and I did try to scrape it to test and it didn't scratch. I think the key to this stuff is to follow the instructions to the letter and prepare well (I used my shot blast cabinet and lots of disposable gloves and made sure the metal was warm).

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Originally Posted by Brit plumber

has had bad reports of it just rubbing off

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Sounds like the surface may not have been degreased properly before use?

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Originally Posted by Brit plumber

I've done a whole Bren body in this same stuff but I got it from here

Frost Metal Blacking Kit and Solutions | Frost Restoration

I think its selenium based and has had bad reports of it just rubbing off but I did the Bren about 6 years ago and it still looks 100%, no rubbing off and I did try to scrape it to test and it didn't scratch. I think the key to this stuff is to follow the instructions to the letter and prepare well (I used my shot blast cabinet and lots of disposable gloves and made sure the metal was warm).

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BP I think its much the same product, like you say regarding the prep, I've done stuff that was just cleaned and comes out more of a very deep Blue, bead blast and the finish is excellent.


F10, the best product I've used for general cleaning is Unitor Metal Brite a 15-20% Phos acid based product, we have been using on ships for donkeys years, also its what I first used on my DIY parkerising/phosphating ..... good stuff.

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Originally Posted by bigduke6

Unitor Metal Brite a 15-20% Phos acid based product,

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I believe that the Machine Mart rust remover has a similar level of Phosphoric acid or slightly higher content; they may be very similar products? Does Unitor Metal Brite require washing with water before painting? That is my one complaint with many of the rust removers on the market because you quite literally see the metal rusting before your very eyes, the very metal that you have just de-rusted!

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Originally Posted by Flying10uk

I believe that the Machine Mart rust remover has a similar level of Phosphoric acid or slightly higher content; they may be very similar products? Does Unitor Metal Brite require washing with water before painting? That is my one complaint with many of the rust removers on the market because you quite literally see the metal rusting before your very eyes, the very metal that you have just de-rusted!

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No, only needs washing of with water on brass, copper, aluminium etc.