Old powder/Old reloaders

Any old reloaders out there that remember Hercules Reloader 21 & Reloader 11 powder. I came across several old cans of both that are still factory sealed. The cans are in nice shape,no rust. I was wondering what to do with it. Since it's no longer made I can't find any load data for it. Is either one safe to use in a garand and if so what would be a good starting load for 168gr. Also i have one sealed can of Hercules Hi-Vel No2 military rifle powder.
Any ideas on that one also. The cans have dates written on them from 1969 &1970. Any danger in using 40 year old powder. All cans have never been opened.

Burning rate is significantly different for these two powders

Assumes that existing RL-10x and RL-12 powders are close cousins (and therefore no need for something inbetween like RL-11),

Ba(RL-10x) = 0.66/sec
Ba(RL-12) = 0.68/sec
.....and therefore (probably)...
Ba(RL-11) ~ 0.67/sec

Compare to two classic Garand powders
- IMR4895 w/ Ba = 0.61/sec (about 10% slower than RL-10x/12)
- IMR4064 w/ Ba = 0.59/sec (a little slower still)

Compare to a Garand no-no powder ...
- IMR4350 w/ Ba = 0.47/sec (30% slower than RL-10x/12

BOTTOM LINE: RL-11 is *probably* safe for Garand port pressure requirements, ...in fact probably a little easier on things than even IMR4895.
Suggested loads, however, is another thing entirely.

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RL-21 is a different story.

Ba(RL-19) = 0.45/sec (slower even than IMR4350)
Ba(RL-22) = 0.39/sec (SLOwwwww.....)

I make the (not too rash) assumption that Ba(RL-21) ~~ 0.41
WAAAaaaayyyy.... too slow for the Garand.
Do Not Use


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What About Loading Data (30-06)
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Gun Digest(1968) Max Load for RL-11 using 150gr bullet: 50gr
Gun Digest(1968) Max Load for RL-11 using 180gr bullet: 45gr

Cross-check.....
The Speer Manual#8 does not list RL-11 for the 30-06 above a 110gr bullet
(though it does list Rl-21 for 150gr and above)

Speer#8 *does* list RL-11 for a 30-40 Krag w/ 150gr bullet, so I cross-checked Quickload against the Krag/150grFMJ using (first RL-10x and then RL-12). It correlated exactly to RL-12. Using RL-12 data (substituting for RL-11) in the 30-06/150grFMJ (24" barrel) against the 1968 Gun Digest Max Loads above yields:

150grFMJ - RL-12/50gr - 2,830fps / 51,500psi
180gr-SP - RL-12/45gr - 2,500fps / 45,200psi


So there you have it......

RL-21 is an absolute NO-GO for the Garand
RL-11 is a *possible* go for the Garand.

STRONG NOTE: I wouldn't even TOUCH the combo w/o working up from 10% down **with a chronograph** and seeing where it was throwing the cases.

IMHO it's not worth the risk of your body parts and the rifle!

What he said. :thup:

(but it was an interesting excercise)

My old Lyman 45 edition shows an accuracy load of

46.0 gr. Rx 11 with a 165 gr bullet for 2739 fps at 46,000 cup.
41.0 gr. Rx 11 with a 168 gr bullet for 2518 fps at 38,100 cup.

Reloader 21 was one of the slowest powders made back then and as stated before not suitable for use in the Garand.

If you open the Rx11 and the powder is a nice dark color with no brown or rust color showing and doesn't not have a strong acid smell then the powder should be OK to use but only you can decide that.

With powder prices at an all time high, I would not hesitate to use it, even if you just used it for plinking loads. Sometimes a little experimentation gives out big rewards in lots of fun, and that's what it's all about.
If you just can't see using it, try trading it or selling it, but don't throw it away if it's still good.
Matt

I also use Rx11 for the .223 and .222 Rem with 50 gr Hornady SPs.

In its day, it was the powder for the 22-250.

There is nothing wrong with "old" powder if it has been stored in sealed containgers at reasonable temperatures.

I have powder I bought back in the 60s and 70s, and find it still shoots exactly as intended. I have one can of Lafflin and Rand black powder dating from pre WWI days, and have shot a little of it. Shoots extremely well.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bruce McAskill

My old Lyman 45 edition shows an accuracy load of

46.0 gr. Rx 11 with a 165 gr bullet for 2739 fps at 46,000 cup.
41.0 gr. Rx 11 with a 168 gr bullet for 2518 fps at 38,100 cup.

Reloader 21 was one of the slowest powders made back then and as stated before not suitable for use in the Garand.

If you open the Rx11 and the powder is a nice dark color with no brown or rust color showing and doesn't not have a strong acid smell then the powder should be OK to use but only you can decide that.

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That is what my old data states also. The RL21 is indeed too slow for the M1 Garand.

Larry Gibson

I just opened a fresh can of bullseye from the 70"s. Smelled ok, not acidic so loaded up some .38 wad cutters and it worked fine. Tom

The numbers assigned to the Reloder series of powders can be a little confusing. The use of the trade name Reloder crosses over different ownership of the company. Accordingly, the patterns of number assignment are not entirely predictable. Reloder 11 and 21 were first sold in 1965 after Hercules realigned their cannister propellants. When Hercules ran the company, rifle powder offerings in their later years could be erratic. RL 11 and 21 were later dropped with nothing in the product line to replace them. Later still, Reloder 12 was introduced as the approximate replacement for RL 11, and Reloader 15 was the approximate replacement for RL 21. Both RL 21 and RL 15 were a bit slower than IMR 4320, perhaps right on the edge of usefulness in the M1 Rifle. The later-introduced Alliant Reloder 22 was much slower. Although the numbers 21 and 22 are close to one another, the actual propellant products were not next to each other in their burning rate.

If you get an adjustable gas cylinder plug for your M1 Rifle, you needn't be overly concerned about marginal propellants for it. You can tailor the gas pressure for the load.

I don't see anything wrong with using obsolete propellants, so long as they are still serviceable and you can dig up appropriate data for them. A gentleman I am acquainted with is in the business of buying abandoned storage locker contents at auction. He sometimes comes up with quantities of small arms propellants, some obsolete but otherwise useable. It is wise to retain nominally obsolete reloading publications for when such opportunities arise. I've got powder manufacturer's little complimentary pamphlets going way back, old reloading manuals, etc. I've got a dog-eared old copy of Phil Sharpe's opus on handloading and still use it on occasion. I think it's the updated version from 1944.

Use it!

I just finised off my last can of Rx11. I loaded it into .30-06 using Lapua 173 gr recessed BTs using 43 gr of Rx11. I just use it for practice since I can no longer duplicate the loads, but it is certainly accurate enough for 100 yd offhand sessions.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Larry Gibson

That is what my old data states also. The RL21 is indeed too slow for the M1 Garand.

Larry Gibson

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FYI i tried the R11 42gr with a Nosler 155 gr in 30.06. It is not safe for the M1 Garand bent my op rod, lesson learned :( worked just fine in my Remington model 30

I read these things and just shake my head sometimes...if the book doesn't specify this powder for a load, don't use it. Old powders may or may not be useable. You as the user won't know if it's degraded or not until the catastrophic failure. You have no way to test it other than firing it. Sacrifice of parts or injury isn't the way to find out.

I was given some powder about a year ago from a relative of a shooter who had recently passed away, also a nice box of shells for a double rifle, put the ammo into my collection and poured the powder on the lawn and watered it.

Took the advice of one of the owners of the local gun store, he also told me not to smell it just use it as fertilizer. There was doubt as to how it was stored and it wasn't worth the risk as stated in post #16.

Also got a native made buckskin "scabbard" with amazing beard work that probably is perfect for a 94 or similar sized rifle.

Boy did I ever get sucked into this thread...it's from 2009...