Stopping a german tank with a Garand

Was talking to a WWII vet yesterday, still very sharp BTW, and got to talking about my rifles collection. He mentioned that it was well-known at the time that a good shot, if he was super cool, could place a bullet between the turret and the hull of a German tank and it would go inside, ricocheting all over the place. He didn't recall just what model of tank this would have been (i imagine they would have all looked alike to a scared infantryman at the time!), but seemed to be pretty confident that this was true.
So I allowed as how that was very interesting and the conversation went on to other interesting things. The whole time, though, I was thinking that this fell into the same ejected Garand clip "ping" category- everybody knew somebody else that swore it was real, but nobody ever actuallyhad it happen to them. I can't imagine any tank designer allowing such an obvious defect to exist, but still.....
So could such a thing be possible? What say you?

:lol: ... not sure what else to add!!!!

Regards,
Doug

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Originally Posted by bob4wd

So could such a thing be possible? What say you?

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No, not even remotely possible. Anyone suggesting such a thing has never had their head inside a tank.

There were some WW2 German tanks that were very difficult to put out action with allied A.P. rounds because of the thick armour. Some success could be achieved by hitting the lower part of the main gun barrel trunnion causing the shell to be deflected downwards through the roof of the tank where the armour was thinner. One or two of the German tanks in the Tank museum at Bovington still have the scars to show where this was attempted. It was a difficult shot to get a successful hit but not impossible and does show that there were weaknesses in design.

I would say the theory outlined in Post 1 is perfectly possible because German tanks did have weaknesses, as I have just described, as did allied tanks. Also there are supposedly a number of unfortunate cases involving early "bullet proof" limousines in which 1 or more of the occupant has been killed by an assassin firing through/round the edges of the doors. This has supposedly been rectified by a design change in more modern designs of armoured limousine so that a bullet can't get a direct path into the vehicle through the door edge gap.

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Originally Posted by Flying10uk

It was a difficult shot to get a successful hit but not impossible and does show that there were weaknesses in design.

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I say again, put your head inside a tank. A rifle won't penetrate at the turret ring. An AP anti tank shell is different. They aren't weak.

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Originally Posted by Flying10uk

I would say the theory outlined in Post 1 is perfectly possible because German tanks did have weaknesses

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You're talking about a vehicle you know nothing about...

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Originally Posted by browningautorifle

You're talking about a vehicle you know nothing about...

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I've told you before Jim don't be so quick to criticise others, you don't know everything.

I speak as an experienced engineer and you will make yourself look silly if someone comes along with evidence proving what is suggested in Post 1 is entirely possible.

I last saw the the excellent Bovington collection about 9 years back.
The King Tiger inparticular is both hugely impressive and absolutely terrifying in equal measure!

Seeing, hearing and feeling these things thundering towards you on the battlefield would strike the fear of god into any sane person.

Any infantryman would, I am sure, keep his head firmly down and not take pot shots with his rifle, to do so would invite the full fury of the armour and the supporting Pazner grenadears...

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Originally Posted by Flying10uk

I speak as an experienced engineer

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That's what I mean exactly. Go take a look and think about what you're suggesting. Badger used to live in a tank and he just laughed...(post 2)...

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Originally Posted by Flying10uk

don't be so quick to criticise others, you don't know everything

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I assure you, I have a good handle on armor and the inside of a tank. I was advance driver and maint instructor...you don't know anything about me.

Perhaps one may have better chance at the vision block, not the turret race ring. These are built to absorb and distribute the weight at angle as well as residual recoil from firing. Think the recoil assembly handles it all? This is why the chassis also jumps when firing. Most race rings are, first and foremost, channels in the hull roof and turret base in which those proverbial steel 1" or so ball bearings roll. Interior wall plates protect from debris and allow water runoff. An inner ring is toothed to facilitate the turret traverse drive. No clear path. A round will expend energy bouncing until it reaches the ball bearing race, in which it will likely be ground up.

Instead, the slit slots (not periscopes, but in particular the driver vision and machinegunner aiming ports and especially the nearly vertical turret walls) which did not have glass behind them are much more appealing, and while causing a brew-up is unlikely, there is a chance that eyes are behind that slot which WILL cause a reaction.

Couple of things here and I will rabbit a bit here,
As far as knocking out a tank with a rifle by getting it between the hull & turret ring wont happen as the turret sits in ball bearings so there is no gap per say that leads directly into the turret as there is a skirt behind the ball bearing race which is part of the turret so the turret basket can be attached.
A good shot and I mean a good shot may have a go at the drivers vision blocks but the commanders cupola has a fair few of them he can guide the tank if needed or worst case scenario rotate the turret and if the bow gunner cannot get to you the main gun may spoil your day. Besides it would take guts to crack at a tank with a 30/06 be like trying to kill an elephant with a slingshot good chance you'll hit him on the trunk and just get stomped to death for your effort.
I have seen live footage of the war in Syria of a lunatic fighter stuff a grenade down a soviet tanks main gun and disable the tank & crew I am not sure of the truth but it is there to see.

When Tiger 131 was captured in Africa it was a fluke shot that jammed the turret ring that and the crew being of a nervous disposition and leaving a complete and functioning Tiger for the allies to take and evaluate I wonder what they said when they got back my guess is they were probably shot for cowardice.
Everything has to be lined up just so to try and land a shell exclusively in the turret ring would be difficult to a degree especially if it were on the move, if you were in a TD you have the opportunity to move after you have fired creating an elusive target also being able if possible utilizing structures or ground to conceal & protect yourself, as all the dust & smoke is going to show where you fired from getting a response from maybe a bigger tank.

A towed A/T gun well you would need a few of them to keep the tank suppressed you cannot do anything about the dust and crud signaling your position so your shot must be good to disable it to a point where it is not a threat but I know for a fact in Russia one Tiger (Pictures of the period of that tank) took over 200 hits from A/T rounds and still crawled 20 klms back to its rear, a tanks weakness even todays ones are the tracks knock them off to give yourself a fighting chance it may be still able to pivot turn on one track to help speed up the turret getting on to target but its not going anywhere.

Thing is the Germans did not send just one tank usually there was a good smattering of infantry with different types maybe scout tanks IV's V's with the Heavies like the VI's, Ferdinands (They were defunct after Kursk really) Panthers or Jagdtigers (From a fixed concealed positions shoot & scoot perhaps).

Sadly a great story and full respect for the vet concerned and for all of those that went away but in reality it would probably mean the demise of the man firing the rifle if not by the tank then surely from the supporting infantry.

One other post sript as I am a rabbit is if the A/P round does not penetrate the hull or turret it may impart such a force that inside the turret/hull the armour crazes and cracks sending secondary fragments around the hull interior disabling/killing the crew. Whilst not a biscuit the fragments would be given enough impetus from the hit to do the deed to the soft stuff inside the tin can.
"The Biscuit" is a term given to the shard/chunk of metal/armour plate that is broken off and moves ahead of the A/P round prior to the entry of the said round this was explained in a video I watched on battleships and how a 15" shell penetrates the armour sides/turret of wherever, what happens is on the inside is a great chunk of steel breaks free ahead of the projectile and becomes a secondary missile killing and maiming before the shell enters and detonates.
The force a 1 ton 15" shell can excerpt or striking energy was calculated at 80,000/foot tons sort of like the Yamato landing on you I have it in my books some where as it goes through all the different calibers and their striking energy & MV's.

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Originally Posted by CINDERS

it was a fluke shot that jammed the turret ring

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You all read the Op statement that the vet said a RIFLE bullet...right? Not an anti tank round...not even a .50 round...a .30 cal round. Never happen. Another man misremembering a story.

We were escorting some ARVN supply and troop trucks on highway 14 north of Pleiku when we heard the main gun of the lead tank fire. We buttoned up and in couple minutes were told to move out as if someone popped a round off just for grins or at a non existent threat. We found out later that some poor soul had fired a few rounds at the TC's cupola and then ran off through the bush. They pivoted their turret around and sent a canister round after him, with no more resulting hostile fire. I don't know what happened to the shooter as we had neither the time nor the inclination to check, but I suspect that if he wasn't a casualty he likely didn't do anything that silly again. Small arms fire against a tank is just stupid and suicidal and I don't believe any .30 cal. rifle round can defeat a tanks armor no matter where it hits. I joined the local VFW a couple years after I got out and I quit going after a while in part because there was often some yahoo spouting some ridiculous story like the one above. A person can only smile, nod knowingly and feign interest for so long before it becomes too tedious to persist. Best. Tom

Stupid question time.

If you got lucky and got a rifle round down the main gun's barrel when the breach was open, do you think it would still have enough energy left, after bouncing off the rifling a couple of times, to cause trouble for the occupants?

Edit. Full sized ww2 rifle round.

That would be a one in a zillion chance henryr but has happened not to a tank but a German quad 20mm, Roland Tuck was coming into crash land his spitfire having succumbed to ground fire as he was gliding in fire came from his direct front in his words "I checked my turn and bank saw it was ok and fired." As always his aim was on the money and the crew were decimated literally as he got out his eye I think was closing due to hitting the reflector sight a rifle round went through the fuselage near him so he put up his hands he was going to set the spit on fire to late now. Anyway the Germans grabbed him and dragged him over to the quad 20mm where there were bits and pieces all over the place he expected to be shot as here they were looking at what his fire had done but oblivious to the dead crew the troops were climbing all over it saying "Goot shot Englander". Apparently one of his 20mm rounds had gone straight up one of the barrels of the quad and peeled open it like a banana. Book ~ Fly For Your Life By Larry Forrester

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Originally Posted by browningautorifle

.you don't know anything about me.

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You don't anything about me either, Jim; don't be so critical of others.

Not to decry the deeds of these very brave men in any way, but when it comes to biographies, you have to take all these anecdotes with a small pinch of salt.

Writers have a natural tendency to, how shall we say "turn up the contrast" on the relayed stories, then the editorial team take a read through and with an eye to sales insist the contrast is turned up even further!

Sadly when a lot of these events are cross checked against the facts...

In Korea it was standard NKA and Chinese Infantry tactics to swamp the tanks and it was standard practice for the other tanks to hose them down with MG fire and cannister before they could set pencil charges or thermite into the little gaps and spaces of the locked down tanks. Aerials were the first things to be broken away of course. Initially these weren't up to date Centurions but wartime Comets, Cromwells and Shermans from Hong Kong and Japan. This 'hosing down' tanks with MG fire and fearsome cannister is still practiced today as I tell in 'The Armourers, Gunfitters and the lost Browning' The mere notion that you could jamb up the turret ring or penetrate the main tank with small-arms fire, even zillions of them or cannister shot is the stuff of another planet. Sorry you doubters but I have seen them in action - albeit Centurions

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Originally Posted by CINDERS

I have seen live footage of the war in Syria of a lunatic fighter stuff a grenade down a soviet tanks main gun

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Here it is. First guy looks like he gets shoot by infantry in the process. He's in bad shape coming back.

FSA fighter throws a grenade down a tank barrel - YouTube

Ok folks.... realizing that a lot of us (including me) are old fogeys often short on patience, let's continue to try to keep this civil, which so far hasn't been too bad.. :thup:

Please stay focused on the original premise stated here in the first post, which was around an old vet's claim that a single 30.06 rifle bullet if well placed into the turret ring would stop a German tank, because it was well known at the time? :lol:

I lived in vintage tanks during the early 60's for many years. I have been to Bovington several times, spent a lot of time discussing many issues and tank folklore with the staff, crawled through the Tiger and Panzer IV and even conducted an impromptu lecture on life inside a Sherman M4.

The claim is from a valued old vet who loves to tell stories over a beer and the more beer that flows, the better the "I remember when..." stories grow. Just ask me and I'll tell you some old veteran tales to pass on to others that will have your jaws drop. :eek:

Now, back to sober reality ... a single 30.06 rifle bullet if well placed into the turret ring would stop a German tank isn't even close to being a reality ... ;)

Regards,
Doug

Nope Jim just went to the next step as I did not want to waste my time explaining why it could not happen I read post one so I knew the form and I am not going to write reams about the plausibility of a 30/06 round hitting a turret bull ring and knocking the tank out I did however explain he may get a shot at the vision blocks. Despite what people think I do read the all posts not just scroll down and put my 2 cents worth in.
All I was quoting was the fact a turret could be jammed by a fluke shot which it was and to tell you the truth if I was facing a Tiger in a Churchill at close range where a persons surviving the encounter are very slim I would be over the moon at that shot and the crew gutlessness........

Or was I supposed to say instead of engaging people with perhaps information they may not have known with as one member may put it ~ Would never happen, stupid notion, next thread!

The reason that I am not as quick to dismiss the veteran's claim as other Forum members apparently are is because I know that when there is an interface between 2 bearing surfaces, as in the turret and the hull of the tank in this case, there will normally also be a certain amount of clearance between the interfaces. This clearance is important because it allows the parts to move freely; further, generally speaking, the larger the bearing in size the more clearance will be present. If there was no clearance between the turret and the hull, the turret would not move.

The question here is whether or not there is enough clearance for a round to penetrate and since we have no idea what model of German tank is in question it is a very difficult question for anyone to answer conclusively. Some of the early WW2 tank designs left much to desired, even some of the German designs.

Are we sure that the veteran was talking about a single shot or a mag full of rounds?

Very silly and not possible at all . Just look how the turret is mounted in the ring . Just because a Vet said it does not mean it is true . I had one tell me how the "sneaky Japs " make their rifles to be able to shoot our 30/06 ammo , but their ammo would not work in ours . He said he saw them do it ! Another wanted help finding his old M-1 carbine , he said he would know his because the rifles were serial numbered to match the ID number on his dog tag .

The jap 7.7 rifle could fire the 303 round but not vice versa as the 7.7 Arisaka round is just that bit longer in the case open up the 2 pics together and compare them they are close, I am just going on what others have said as no one I know owns a 7.7 only the 6.5 Arisaka.

F-10, might I su8ggest a moments pause and reflection on this matter......., please........ It's called the '.......when you're in a hole, stop digging' scenario as I recall

On the subject of veterans recollections, I could write a whole book about some of the pure horse shi.........., er........., manure they used to come in and tell me/us. As for their 'stories' about the Sten gun and Bren guns, you couldn't make up some of it. But they did!

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Originally Posted by Peter Laidler

F-10, might I su8ggest a moments pause and reflection on this matter......., please........ It's called the '.......when you're in a hole, stop digging' scenario as I recall

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Peter, all I'm saying is that I'm not prepared to totally dismiss the suggestion made in Post 1 as quickly as you and others apparently are. In my opinion we don't know enough about the scenario we are talking about, what conditions, what model of tank etc etc, to make an informed conclusion, one way or the other.

Perhaps a Forum member in the U.S. with access to a live Garand would like to cary out some practical experimentation to see if this is actually possible. We will need a friendly museum who is willing to loan us various models of WW2 German tanks and also a number of helpful volunteers who feel comfortable to sit inside the various tanks while the experiments take place. I for one will not be volunteering for this experiment but it would appear from this thread that there are no shortage of helpful people who are more than willing to play their part to disprove Post 1 by sitting inside a tank while the experiments takes place.

I do not understand the statement that says the Type 99 7.7mm rifle could chamber and fire the 303 British round . ?? The 303 is a rimmed case with a .525 dia rim that will not even fit the .472 bolt face of the rimless 7.7x58 mm bolt , nor will it fit the chamber . Also my statement was about the US 30/06 being fired in the 7.7mm Type 99 rifle .

Think #1 has got the mileage out of this and not come back in to the fray think we have tracked on with this one a fair bit, bags being the shooter who's going in the tank/s.......!
#26 just another vets tail told to me by some WWII vets that faced the japs who am I to argue with them......

There's not much more that can be accomplished with this thread, as the posts speak for themselves... ;)

Let's move on .. :cheers:

Regards,
Doug