MG42 use during the Soviet era of the 1980s in Afghanistan.

Last Sunday night I was watching a programme about the Cold War on the Quest channel and part of the programme looked at Afghanistan in the 1980s after the Soviets invaded to "help" the then government of the country. I couldn't help but notice when it showed some footage of the insurgents/freedom fighters using an MG42 or a clone of this M.G..

I was wondering if anyone has any knowledge of the MG42 or one of it's clones use in Afghanistan during the 1980s, please, and who may have supplied them? Would they be chambered for 7.92 Mauser or 7.62 Nato ammunition? The most obvious source would have been the Pakistan version from that country's military but I'm not at all sure if this would have been politically possible at the time.

I'm not so interested in the more recent conflict in Afghanistan with regards this post but I am interested specifically during the 1980s period, part of the Cold War period.

Thanks for any information.

I never encountered them in my time there, but since it is the crossroad of the old spice route as it were, these guns could have come from a number of sources. For example how did Canadian made Long Branch rifles end up in the country for use by anti-governmental forces?

Or how did S&B headstamped Czech ball end up fired against us on patrol? It was very much a collecting ground for all manner of odds and sods.

I've never heard any mention of them being used there before but it was achieve film footage and as the saying goes, "the camera doesn't lie".

I would have thought they were more likely Pakastan made MG3's supplied to the tribal areas to fight the Soviets, they probably didn't last too long in country because I wouldn't have thought 7.62x51mm was as easily acquired in quantity.

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Originally Posted by Sentryduty

...snip... For example how did Canadian made Long Branch rifles end up in the country for use by anti-governmental forces?
...snip...

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Simple, we gave up to 25,000 from war stores to the CIA for Afghanistan in the early 80's.

The cover story (??)was that they were stolen for the Quebec independence army, but they showed up in the Afghan insurgent forces.

I would imagine all done in a deniable way via shadowy third party arms dealers...

So the Canadian and US Government's could say nothing to do with us if it all went wrong

Oh no............... Back to the so called 'Irish Army' No4's that ended up there.......... Hundreds and hundreds of them................... Ooooooooops

As we had an intelligence interest in captured small arms for reasons best known to those on a higher up the food chain than me, I never saw an MG42 or MG3 or MG42/59 on the capture lists

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Originally Posted by Peter Laidler

'Irish Army' No4's

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Don't mention the Spanish inquisition Peter:rofl:

It would have been handy to have been able to go through the film footage frame by frame because of what else we could have picked out. I think that there may have also been one or two K98s and or Mosin Nagants but the camera panned round far too quickly for me to be sure. There was definitely at least one MG42 or a derivative captured on film. What I don't know is to what extent this weapon was used in Afghanistan in the 1980s, the exact models or the origin.

It is the conflict in Afghanistan involving the Soviets that I am interested in because that is when the film footage in question was taken.

It is also possible that the documentary chose to roll in other footage from "similar" conflicts to fill a gap in visuals. It is not uncommon for TV documentary producers to use this tactic when a scene calls for it.

It is very hard to say without looking at the film clips and verifying the source.

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Originally Posted by Sentryduty

It is very hard to say without looking at the film clips and verifying the source.

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It is after all media, and their main job is to sell news. Doesn't matter about source or truth. Anyone believing without firsthand knowledge can also believe that rabbits can talk.

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Originally Posted by browningautorifle

It is after all media, and their main job is to sell news. Doesn't matter about source or truth. Anyone believing without firsthand knowledge can also believe that rabbits can talk.

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Even beyond the normal, "the media is no soldier's friend" in the editing room they tend to be sloppy.

I am sure that our members have noticed in documentaries "flipped negatives" that suggest left handed versions of rifles, or unit markings equipment on film clips that didn't exist in the time/location in the narration.

In places where uniforms and terrain are difficult to nail down allows Syria footage to morph to Iraq, or Afghanistan to become the Golan, etc etc.

It is sloppy work or creative licence that does discredit to many documentaries as a viable historical reference.

It certainly looked like Afghanistan from the way people were dressed, the terrain and the Soviet armoured vehicles which were also shown. Was the Soviet Union involved in another war around the same time as their Afghanistan campaign in the 1980s with similar terrain and where the local population were dressed in a similar manner to the Afghan civilian population?

Without seeing the footage myself it is impossible for me to offer much more help. However Russian TO&E found its way everywhere from the 1950's on.

And depending on how the clips were threaded together the shooting may have been from one event, and the target and battle effects could have been taken from a completely unrelated timeline.

Again without watching the film it is hard to judge.

I don't think that there was anything dodgy about the film footage; my interest in it was seeing the MG42 or a derivative. It made me wonder to what extent that it may have been used there during the 1980s.

MG42s or MG3s were not supplied in large numbers to the Muj. Those people keep every gun they get their hands on. We would have seen them in the civil war and the current war that started in 2001 if they had them.

Iran and Pakistan have borders with Afghanistan, the terrain is the same in those places. The people look and dress the same. OBL was a Saudi and he looked like one of them. So, you really can’t tell what country it is by the terrain or where the people are from by the way they are dressed.

If the film clip was taken in Afghanistan in the 80’s, the MG was probably taken there by one of the many foreign fighters, the “Afghan Arabs” who went to Afghanistan to wage jihad against the Soviets.

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Originally Posted by mrclark303

I would imagine all done in a deniable way via shadowy third party arms dealers...

So the Canadian and US Government's could say nothing to do with us if it all went wrong

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Shipped by Southern Air Transport to bordering county would be my guess.

It was a CIA owned cargo airline for many years and continued to support the agency after they were forced to sell it in the mid 70’s. The Iran-Contra arms, parts, etc. were flown by Southern Air Transport in 85’ and 86’.

Interesting stuff Vincent, so not unlike Air America of an earlier generation.

I bet they just use International Arms dealers these days, all done through middle men, you can bet your bottom dollar lessons were learnt from the Iran Contra affair.

Incidentally, whatever became of Colonel North?

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Originally Posted by Vincent

Iran and Pakistan have borders with Afghanistan, the terrain is the same in those places. The people look and dress the same. OBL was a Saudi and he looked like one of them. So, you really can’t tell what country it is by the terrain or where the people are from by the way they are dressed.

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I think that their respective governments would have had something to say about the Soviet troops and armoured vehicles waging war on their soil, which was shown in the footage, if it had been Iran or Pakistan.

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Originally Posted by mrclark303

Incidentally, whatever became of Colonel North?

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If you can believe Wiki... Oliver North - Wikipedia

Cheers Jim, I wonder how many senior officers would be prepared to "bend" the rules to get the job done these days ... Even if that job, as in old Olly Norths case, was ever so slightly questionable!

It did mention Oliver North and the Contra rebels as part of the programme Sunday night of which this thread is about. It's unfortunate that you didn't see it because it was interesting and it was repeated again, slightly later, last night.

Ah, found it on Quest F10, I will see if I can catch it online.

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Originally Posted by Sentryduty

"flipped negatives" that suggest left handed versions of rifles

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This explains why one well known U.K. dealer had a picture of a Sten that appeared to feed from the opposite side to the norm. I couldn't work it out at the time and never got round to asking the dealer about it; it looked weird, like a left handed Sten Gun but I assume now the dealer didn't spot the error.

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Originally Posted by mrclark303

I wonder how many senior officers would be prepared to "bend" the rules to get the job done these days

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Thing is, they put him in that position and it WAS his job. Imagine another of those conversations in a closed door office that "Never took place?"...I had a few but not quite like that. More were like..."Come in and close the door, remain standing!"... He stood his ground and never did disclose. It cost him his active career, I hope they took care of him financially...I'll bet that whole thing came right from the CIC...quite a piece of soldiering.