Lucas Rear Motorcycle lamp, Electrolysis rust removal

Think it was in the Discussion forum but as it relates to a vehicle I've posted it here, a few were interested in the electrolysis method of getting rid of rust, the lamp is a prime example, after approx 24 hrs it cleaned up well, needs a lot of work and the lamp holder is past its sell by date, the bracket has suffered the worst, but the *** end cover is not bad, someone in the past has used solder, this has covered a good percentage so guess this saved it.

I'll make a new lamp holder and use a silver brazing rod as a filler on the bad bits of the bracket, a lot of work as a repo can be had for £14.00...... but I'm trying to use as much original stuff as I can when building up my Matchless.

The method is a very easy way to remove rust and get back to bear metal.

Tools required, plastic tub, a battery charger, a sacrificial anode (any clean mild steel will do) I've used old 6" nails I reclaimed, some water ...and soap powder.

Place items to be cleaned up in the water, attach the NEGATIVE lead to these, in the pics I've used two leads, the negative lead can be submerged but keep the POSITIVE above the water.

Place anode (scrap steel in water) some of this needs to protrude to attach the POSITIVE lead,

Sprinkle some soap powder and connect charger to mains and switch on.......

The items ,

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...cabp3dis-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...xsrv7yst-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...7eifoahm-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...rabz8eb5-1.jpg

After approx 16 hrs,

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...gikfbyyg-1.jpg

after 24 hrs

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...xjjyreij-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...eakhpi5d-1.jpg


Forgot to say, I was wanting to get it sand blasted as I have a few bits to do but weather not on my side at present, will update thread when finished.

Great results. I did two 1909 bayonets this week end with compairable results.

Are you able to clarify exactly what soap powder is used in the process, please? Is this what I ask for in the Supermarket?

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Originally Posted by Flying10uk

Are you able to clarify exactly what soap powder is used in the process, please? Is this what I ask for in the Supermarket?

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Just the stuff for washing clothes etc, Daz, Bold etc.

This is what I used.
Arm & Hammer Multi-Brand - ARM & HAMMERâ„¢ Super Washing Soda Detergent Booster

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Originally Posted by bigduke6

I was wanting to get it sand blasted

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I think sand blasting will consume that piece.

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Originally Posted by browningautorifle

I think sand blasting will consume that piece.

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I agree. Perhaps bead or soda blast? Maybe the picture is deceiving though. Tom

I'll be using aluminium oxide...... just to clean it up and then fill the bad bits on the bracket with silver brazing rod and make good, the lamp holder is shot will make a new one the cover is not too bad.

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Originally Posted by bigduke6

Just the stuff for washing clothes etc, Daz, Bold etc.

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Originally Posted by HOOKED ON HISTORY

This is what I used.
Arm & Hammer Multi-Brand - ARM & HAMMERâ„¢ Super Washing Soda Detergent Booster

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Thanks chaps, apologies for not being very domesticated.

I find with a lower out-put compressor, as many of the compressors are that are intended for DIY use are, glass beads will give much better results than aluminium oxide blast medium. Glass beads seem better at removing rust with a lower out-put compressor plus it gives a better surface finish.

I think I sold my last MCT1 a few years back to help fund the jeep. I bought a NOS one off ebay about 10 years ago and the seller got in touch and said he had a whole bucket full of them and did I want them all. I ended up with about 20 NOS in the box MCT1s, I kept a few for my WD/C and WD/CO, sold about 5 to South Africa and then sold the rest on ebay. I never realised how desperate people were for them and how much they'd pay!

Quite a rare item now and sought after, the one above was from a dealer in France or Germany, he showed a pic of a lot of rusted ones he had on the HMVF , it was a lucky dip regarding what you got, it does look a lot worse than it is, but once a bead blast, and a new lamp holder made should be ok, need to fill the corroded spots on the bracket with braze etc, just a pity the impressed " L-WD MCT1A" can't be read as only slight bit left.....

The last I seen on ebay was around £80 (good but used).

All good fun....... engine is due to be fully stripped this week to see if any spares required (can actually get in the workshop without going blue) new Valve guide and valves for sure and crank case seals etc, fingers crossed piston and rings within tolerance but I doubt it ........ If you do know anyone with Matchless spares I'd like to get in touch with them.

Have you heard of Ron Pier, nice chap, we've had many a good deal in the past. He's just made a Lighweight 350cc Enfield after he found the original trial engine in South Africa. He has contacts all over the world and knows where anything you need....will be.

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Originally Posted by Brit plumber

Have you heard of Ron Pier, nice chap, we've had many a good deal in the past. He's just made a Lighweight 350cc Enfield after he found the original trial engine in South Africa. He has contacts all over the world and knows where anything you need....will be.

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I know of Ron, only through email and the HMVF, any questions he is normally the first to reply...... Its probably one of your lamps he had a picture of in the box.
Certainly a nice collection of Bikes,

In fact will be contacting him soon regarding the state of my engine..... after stripping the engine, there were a few signs of neglect and some damage not much but ...... the valve springs had no bottom cup, one of the collars was on its last and no spacer was fitted on the exhaust, the cams have suffered corrosion and quite pitted etc although the peaks are ok, same on the tappets but the feet are ok, driving side bearings are good and the timing bush, bottom end is a bit sluggish ( Flywheels just about to be split and inspected) the joys of old British bikes......

It was obvious why it was burning oil, the inlet valve guide was well worn...

Vinegar actually does the same thing only better. Boil the piece in caustic first, or put in an ultrasonic cleaner to get the grease and dirt off. Once the vinegar has converted the rust, it just blows off in the ultrasonic leaving even the pits clean to the bottom.

Thats what I used on the inside of the petrol tank...... few hours later and a few weeps appeared, certainly cleaned the inside, had to use a tank sealer in the end as every time I brazed up a hole another appeared.

Nice work. I recently used electrolysis on a rusty WWI British MkI Brodie helmet shell I'm gradually restoring. Good fun, although due to a lack of good sacrificial anodes and the kit to secure them in the best places, I eventually returned to my usual rust removing method: dilute citric acid.

I'm now at the repainting stage, although this is a bit slow and laborious as there's lots of fine pitting to fill in. Getting there though.

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Originally Posted by peregrinvs

fine pitting to fill in

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I know it's a bit outside, but have you tried Bondo or some such? It would fill, sand and then look perfect after paint. It wouldn't be thick either, just a skim.

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Originally Posted by browningautorifle

I know it's a bit outside, but have you tried Bondo or some such? It would fill, sand and then look perfect after paint. It wouldn't be thick either, just a skim.

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I have used car body filler or epoxy on deep pitting in the past, but in this case I've just been painting on and sanding down thick coats of primer undercoat paint. It does the job, but it's a bit laborious.

I've also mixed some homebrew WWI style khaki paint for the exterior, which was fun.

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Originally Posted by peregrinvs

WWI style khaki paint for the exterior,

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Although not what we're doing in this thread, maybe a thread with some pics of your restorations for us to examine? Things like that give us food for thought...?

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Originally Posted by browningautorifle

Although not what we're doing in this thread, maybe a thread with some pics of your restorations for us to examine? Things like that give us food for thought...?

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I have been documenting the process and would like to do that. Just need a suitable dollop of time to sort it all out.

Yu' know what....... there something quite good and telling about seeing how it really was, pitting an' all, beneath a coat of new paint. How many virtually and totally rusted out No32's are out there, optically and mechanically like brand new, with formerly rusted and pitted tubes but are now saved from the scrap yard. They're the ones that have a bit of history attached.

My pal found a stack of about 6 of old wartime blue Police and bronze green kakhi NFS/AFS helmets in an old council building being converted into flats. I arranged for them to be bead blasted and re-phosphated but the pitting was heavy and still remained of course. He had them painted in the correct colours and the sign-writer, an old fashioned one who used paint instead of stickers..... (and hand painted the logos on our Mod Sports car) repainted the white word POLICE and rank markers plus the red NFS (national fire service although one was marked AFS - Army?). And they did look very good. Just me of course

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Originally Posted by Peter Laidler

Yu' know what....... there something quite good and telling about seeing how it really was, pitting an' all, beneath a coat of new paint

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As Peter says, its good to see some vehicles that have obvious suffered in the past and have been restored, but still have a few scars. Several at the War & Peace show you can see were the owner has fought and won over "rust and corrosion" the lamp that started this tread is just an example, its been slow progress, weather in the last week has helped, so managed to managed to get some blasting done, and also to show the finish when using a product called metal brute, pics below, the f*g end come out not too bad and carries the original lens, the lamp holder was beyond repair and the one shown has been part machined from an old pump shaft, the main plate had been filled with braze but struggled to build up some of the edges, so built them using stainless steel (arc welder,thin rods and lots of patience).

The dull looking picture is after its been sand blasted and then left in a product called metal brite, we use this often in the Marine industry, its a basic mild solution of Phosphoric acid with some cleaning additives. it has now been painted in red oxide, (pic of this to follow near completion)

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...dvzo7j87-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...rvnz1leq-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...rtshzwc5-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...ocpuxb85-1.jpg


On a bigger scale and As the weather was with us for a time I managed to get the old paint stripped and cleaned up from something else and it then had the electrolysis treatment for around 18 hours, for obvious reasons a certain 5 year old was not too happy but did explain it was for a good reason (I knew I would get flak so purchased the one in the pic for £5.99 rather than use hers)

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...ll2owtpo-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...nspldvt7-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...bgug6u1p-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...orhngm8t-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...1n17cpf0-1.jpg


The dark areas on the tube in the blast tank are the conversion of the rust, may sound stupid but these area's (all over the frame) were hardly visible when the frame was just sanded, only after the Electrolysis was it visible and how bad it was, this is were folk trip up and see shiny metal and proceed to paint etc....... I can certainly say this was the mistake made by a previous owner, as the paint was little and could be removed with the finger nail basically "**** poor preparation"

Its nice to get the fist coat of red oxide primer on, (brushed) I've used the paint before on my phone box and the results were excellent, it needs a rub over with wet and dry and then the second coat applied, third coat will be a standard primer then two coats of Synthetic service brown........

It's looking healthier now...

Cheers Jim, I can see a glimmer of light at the end of the tunnel now......

Did you or are you going to make any new parts? The tin-work looks pretty agricultural, such as the light bracket (top photos, thread 22) would be dead simple - so presumably will other similar pieces, I made plenty of new parts such as bracketry etc for my 1969 Mini Cooper S plus stainless odds and sods for my Commando. Mind you, the Cooper S, being a BMC product (Bloody Midlands Crap.....) was pretty agricultural, basic, paint free etc etc anyway. To be honest, I assembled them with a view to later maintainability as opposed to rigid originality and used stainless UNF nuts, bolts washers where I could/possible PLUS modern jointing compounds and grease/oils. Just painted the visible exposed stainless parts over.

Mind you, I made some real howlers too....... such as cleaning out the front subframe tower threads with a BSF tap instead of UNF (26 -28 TPI!!!!). Took days to understand what I'd done wrong but Mr Helicoil came to the rescue with his thread inserts! Anothger good tip I learned when doing my wifes Dolomite Sprint was never, ever, never, under pain of death, have metal to metal contact when fixing stuff to the bodywork. Always have a thin neoprene membrane between then squeeze up. They used to use a lot of fibre washers and gaskets! I mean......... water absorbent fibre.....!

Great to see and don't forget, those photos in an album are worth an extra £2000 on top of the price when you sell it. That's the only way the buyer can see what's not festering under the shining (or matt in your case.....) paintwork

We had a bloke on the forum restoring one of those tracked motorcycle things a couple of years ago. There's a project!!!!! Wonder where he has gone now. Sorry to have gone off at a tangent

Peter, some parts I'm making, others I'm restoring , the lamp bracket has had a few coats of primer and looks serviceable now compared to post #1, I've kept all the pics so far..... I'll update the Matchless thread, the Petrol tank is the only thing that I've used filler, small parts etc will have the same process as the frame above but the bonus of phosphate too.... all the engine bits are now ready to go, just need to give the outside of the crankcases a blast (these are 1942 replacements)

The tracked Motorcycle you mention was the Kettenkrad, that was a project and a half and the owner a skilled tin basher........

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Originally Posted by Flying10uk

Are you able to clarify exactly what soap powder is used in the process, please? Is this what I ask for in the Supermarket?

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It’s sodium tricarbonate you can also use sodium bicarbonate (baking soda)
FYI
Also the more amps you use the faster the rust is removed! Oh Don’t worry about the metal your only changing rust. A 200 amp battery charger or even a dc stick welder works good for high amps faster rust conversion
Be careful with fumes ie hydrogen
I do it in garage with ventilation no problem though
Food for thought

I have done it with a engine using a pallet built into box and a tarp!

For de-rusting steel and iron items, try molasses, the stuff used for stock feed and interesting cooking. You can get it in bulk from places that sell animal feed and farm requisites.

It is a SLOW process, but involves no mechanical "violence" like grit-blasting.

Caveat: DO NOT use molasses with Zinc or Aluminium parts.

Interesting to read about "Soda" baths.

I use "Washing Soda" (Sodium Carbonate) to clean cartridge brass. It should be available in the "Washing" section of your trusty supermarket. Being slightly caustic, also not recommended for Zn and Al alloys. My "refinement" is the additional use of "industrial" vinegar.

The first "bath" is in a hot and strong brew of the washing soda. This removes any residual grease and oil, and seems to "activate" the oxidized surface. Next "bath" is plain HOT water, to remove most of the soda residue.

Into a container of vinegar; watch for the colour change from "brown" to "brassy yellow".

A "running" hot fresh water rinse, and then into a second, HOT washing soda and finally a HOT rinse.

All that heat is useful because it seems to make things "go faster" and, just as importantly, DRY faster, especially if direct sunlight is not available.

Have a ferret around the websites that specialize in "traditional" household cleaning techniques; it's amazing what you can do with simple stuff, like common vinegar.

Just another thought:

Has anyone tried "Metal Spray"?

This is a technique which uses essentially a plasma jet to spray metal onto an existing surface.

Also known also Vacuum Plasma Spraying.

Some more details here.

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Originally Posted by Bruce_in_Oz

Just another thought:

Has anyone tried "Metal Spray"?

This is a technique which uses essentially a plasma jet to spray metal onto an existing surface.

Also known also Vacuum Plasma Spraying.

Some more details here.

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Bruce--

I have not used the metal spray that the company uses but I have on several occasion had used micro laser bonding on real small broken parts to a slide and #3 Lee Enfield bolthead. It will bond the pieces together without a lot surrounding heat to take the temper out of the metal.

--fjruple

I've done the metal spraying many moons ago and was never that impressed, but to be fair I doubt we had it set up properly.

We were stuck for a spare pump shaft, so I built up a spare one from a used but nearly good one (we never really threw anything out deep sea), after I stripped the pump that was on its last legs, the shaft in it wasn't as bad as expected so decided to just build it up with stainless welding rods, took some time but once machined it was perfect.......and we still had the spare which had been sprayed.

Oops hit button twice