Information Requested 1941 LB No4 MkI

Trying to determine a fair price for a 1941 LB No4 MkI that I am looking to purchase. If does not look like it has been FTR'd and metal matches however the stock was refinished and I don't believe it is the completely original stock. I also think magazine is not original. Both seller and myself really aren't sure of what a fair price would be. Any info would be appreciated.

Both Seller and myself are in the States.

Pics can be found at link.

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Seems the stock is completely wrong as is the metal finish. I guess it was wishful thinking that the metal looked that new. With that being said was it FTR by another nation or by the same person that went to town on the stock.

It's even marked '46 showing a redo at that time. Most aren't original anyway.

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Originally Posted by browningautorifle

It's even marked '46 showing a redo at that time. Most aren't original anyway.

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I was looking on the barrel and receiver and didn't even notice the 46 on the band. I also have to stop looking on phone. Why is it not marked FTR? Or is it and I finally need glasses? Would that finish be from 1946? Any idea of value?

After looking on a larger screen and consulting with another member there appears to be other issues as well. I would really like an all original LB MkI one day, but for now I will settle for my matching FTR LB MkI.

After getting further pics rifle was humped bolt re-numbered.

Doesn't matter, you can always shoot it.

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Originally Posted by browningautorifle

Doesn't matter, you can always shoot it.

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True and for someone else it will likely make a good shooter. The barrel looked correct and bore looked good. I shoot all my Enfields and they are some of my favorites.

The re-numbering was not even a decent job.

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...effd361a-1.jpg

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Originally Posted by capt14k

The re-numbering was not even a decent job.

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Oh well, it's done now.

Link is dead; photos taken down?

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Originally Posted by Surpmil

Link is dead; photos taken down?

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Here is the link, guys: Cap was very helpful in discovering what this was.
WTS Beautiful Enfield Long Branch #4

Moved Files and linked stopped working. Here is new link.

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Originally Posted by Gustro79

Here is the link, guys: Cap was very helpful in discovering what this was.
WTS Beautiful Enfield Long Branch #4

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Gustro79 is a plus to the collector community. Both of us learned some about Long Branch Enfields and this rifle in particular. While it wasn't what either of us wanted we were able to get to the truth. In the end it all worked out because it sold quickly and with full disclosure to another buyer. I'm sure he got a good shooter.

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Originally Posted by capt14k

Gustro79 is a plus to the collector community. Both of us learned some about Long Branch Enfields and this rifle in particular. While it wasn't what either of us wanted we were able to get to the truth. In the end it all worked out because it sold quickly and with full disclosure to another buyer. I'm sure he got a good shooter.

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What a damn roller coaster. Now I've got a couple people suggesting an arsenal job on the bolt, not bubba.

The bolt renumbering is original. I've seen more than I can count just like it with hundreds of No.4's through here in the past 20+ years.

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Originally Posted by Brian Dick

The bolt renumbering is original. I've seen more than I can count just like it with hundreds of No.4's through here in the past 20+ years.

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Really that poor of a job with the Serif style numbers?

Yes Sir. Done during it's rebuild in 1946.

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Originally Posted by Brian Dick

Yes Sir. Done during it's rebuild in 1946.

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What about the metal and stock refinish?

Also who did the rebuild?

How can one tell the difference between arsenal re-number and AFAC humped bolt?

How does the re-number and re-finish affect value?

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Originally Posted by Brian Dick

Yes Sir. Done during it's rebuild in 1946.

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My first thought was that the sloppy match job actually lended credibility because I would think a faker would have tried a little harder. (But I know nothing about these.)

No one seems to know just exactly what country did the FTR and marked them with the "46" date stamp on the left side of the butt socket. I'd make an uneducated guess that it's a European workshop as I had many former Greek owned Long Branch rifles that had the same marking. As far as the bolt renumber, if you look at enough of them you just know. You can check to make sure the bolt fits correctly too because there's more to it than numbering a new bolt body, assembling and slapping it in there. Value is in the eyes of the seller and purchaser. Some don't care and some do.

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Originally Posted by Brian Dick

No one seems to know just exactly what country did the FTR and marked them with the "46" date stamp on the left side of the butt socket. I'd make an uneducated guess that it's a European workshop as I had many former Greek owned Long Branch rifles that had the same marking. As far as the bolt renumber, if you look at enough of them you just know. You can check to make sure the bolt fits correctly too because there's more to it than numbering a new bolt body, assembling and slapping it in there. Value is in the eyes of the seller and purchaser. Some don't care and some do.

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The bolt fits absolutely meticulously perfect. It is more smooth than my Savage original numbers matching bolt

Nice to see some more info on this rifle. I'm the one that pulled the trigger on the sale. I've collected for twenty years and never had a No.4. All of my milsurps are shooters, so I'm generally more concerned about function and appearance than pure originality and collector value, mainly because I really don't ever intend on selling anything anyway. I've been on the hunt for a war era no4 for a while now but I personally cannot stand the later rifles that came with the suncorite finish. I also live in the middle of nowhere and the gun shows are a joke around here. What no 4s you can find are absolutely atrocious and way over priced. That is why this rifle stood out, and why I decided to take it. I do apologize if I snatched it out from under someone else that was interested. It is going to a good home.

Any additional info is on the rifle especially the finish would be appreciated!

It's hard to tell from the photos about the finish. The original finish was Dulite blue which is easily mistaken for Parkerizing as on sand blasted, factory original Savage bodies. My 1941 Long Branch No.4Mk.1, (0L880), is finished in the post WWII Canadian phosphate/Parkerizing. It's almost certainly a Canadian FTR as they didn't mark them at all. I've had hundreds of Long Branch rifles through here and it's the only 1941 date LB Mk.1 I've ever encountered here other than one other that was a British post war conversion to No.4Mk.1/2.

For comparison and with thanks to Advisory Panel member Lance, you could check the Canada - Milsurp Knowledge Library (click here)

A rare 1941 No.4 Mk1 Long Branch Rifle (click here) .....

Regards,
Doug

Here is some quick phone pics of my 1941 LB No4 MkI. Serial is 1L576. Band, Bolt, Fore Stock match. I believe barrel does too but I don't have time to break it down right now. Magazine is electro pencil matching. Butt Stock has a different number but matches fore stock.

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...329befd1-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...97a66220-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...f48f4617-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...8899ea2b-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...64af4f54-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...591ae492-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...df7eaa21-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...113481eb-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...f79e1ae4-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...a96c85ac-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...bb29ab72-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...1ea64f27-1.jpg

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Originally Posted by capt14k

Here is some quick phone pics of my 1941 LB No4 MkI. Serial is 1L576. Band, Bolt, Fore Stock match. I believe barrel does too but I don't have time to break it down right now. Magazine is electro pencil matching. Butt Stock has a different number but matches fore stock.

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...329befd1-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...97a66220-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...f48f4617-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...8899ea2b-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...64af4f54-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...591ae492-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...df7eaa21-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...113481eb-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...f79e1ae4-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...a96c85ac-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...bb29ab72-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...1ea64f27-1.jpg

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That damn import mark...sheesh!

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Originally Posted by DiegoMenendez

That damn import mark...sheesh!

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Yes I prefer them on the barrel. Which I'm not sure why they put it there especially since it was imported in the mid 90s IIRC. I have seen worse and they unfortunately are prescribed by law. Personally they do not bother me other than the upside down century billboards. I've never paid more for a non import marked rifle.

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Originally Posted by capt14k

Yes I prefer them on the barrel. Which I'm not sure why they put it there especially since it was imported in the mid 90s IIRC. I have seen worse and they unfortunately are prescribed by law. Personally they do not bother me other than the upside down century billboards. I've never paid more for a non import marked rifle.

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This one is on the barrel.
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...d79d77a5-1.jpg

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Originally Posted by Gustro79

This one is on the barrel.
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...d79d77a5-1.jpg

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That's exactly where I prefer them.

$415 shipped for that rifle, FTR or not is an incredible deal.

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Originally Posted by DiegoMenendez

$415 shipped for that rifle, FTR or not is an incredible deal.

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I have had three other collectors who I considered very knowledgeable and two of which are well known say it is a Bubba job. The most knowledgeable Enfield collector I know will weigh in tonight with his opinion. Price wise they said between $250-350.

The bolt renumber is a "bubba job", but what is the SN on the butt socket and how does it look?

At least you have the right bolt and the since the chances of finding one of those are so small (says he who has found two over the years) that perhaps the socket was renumbered as well?

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Originally Posted by Surpmil

The bolt renumber is a "bubba job", but what is the SN on the butt socket and how does it look?

At least you have the right bolt and the since the chances of finding one of those are so small (says he who has found two over the years) that perhaps the socket was renumbered as well?

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The verdict on the bluing is that this is not been Bubba reblued. the finish is exactly the same under the cosmoline. Every metal part has an LB mark.
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...249dd86d-1.jpg

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...220398dc46.jpg
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...c1b156af85.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...c042d50c-1.jpghttps://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...ac1a4fe2-1.jpghttps://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...58054034-1.jpghttps://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...ff7f31c1-1.jpghttps://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...be262232-1.jpghttps://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...5eb486d0-1.jpghttps://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...7f9f547b-1.jpghttps://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...797c2ec1-1.jpghttps://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...7aa2a1b2-1.jpghttps://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...1360e373-1.jpg

I have one very much like that. /46 marked 0L803X, serial number and early bolt knob and re-marked bolt body, with the same font as the rifle shown. it is a later bolt body, as it does not have the drilled out bolt knob but the original 0L is still showing Restamped serial obviously hand stamped, the last two digits were opposite (X3) and then remarked (3X). Round cocking knob, # 1 bolt head

The front sight guard is the Long Branch marked waisted part. The front band is the split Long Branch part and is a lighter shade blue finish then the rest of the rifle. The middle band is milled but no Long Branch marking. Wood is well used, bore is like new. Mazak butt.

Rear sight is the CMK3 milled part and has a different blue than the rest of the action body/barrel. Magazine is odd, has Canadian UCF follower, but no LB mark on body.

It is very close to the rifle shown. My guess was that rifle was more or less correct as it left the workshop.

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Originally Posted by Frederick303

I have one very much like that. /46 marked 0L803X, serial number and early bolt knob and re-marked bolt body, with the same font as the rifle shown. it is a later bolt body, as it does not have the drilled out bolt knob but the original 0L is still showing Restamped serial obviously hand stamped, the last two digits were opposite (X3) and then remarked (3X). Round cocking knob, # 1 bolt head

The front sight guard is the Long Branch marked waisted part. The front band is the split Long Branch part and is a lighter shade blue finish then the rest of the rifle. The middle band is milled but no Long Branch marking. Wood is well used, bore is like new. Mazak butt.

Rear sight is the CMK3 milled part and has a different blue than the rest of the action body/barrel. Magazine is odd, has Canadian UCF follower, but no LB mark on body.

It is very close to the rifle shown. My guess was that rifle was more or less correct as it left the workshop.

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Wow, that is nearly exactly this rifle.
Same thing with my mag... Follower it's Canadian marked but not the mag. All the wood is either savage or Longbranch marked.

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Originally Posted by Frederick303

I have one very much like that. /46 marked 0L803X, serial number and early bolt knob and re-marked bolt body, with the same font as the rifle shown. it is a later bolt body, as it does not have the drilled out bolt knob but the original 0L is still showing Restamped serial obviously hand stamped, the last two digits were opposite (X3) and then remarked (3X). Round cocking knob, # 1 bolt head

The front sight guard is the Long Branch marked waisted part. The front band is the split Long Branch part and is a lighter shade blue finish then the rest of the rifle. The middle band is milled but no Long Branch marking. Wood is well used, bore is like new. Mazak butt.

Rear sight is the CMK3 milled part and has a different blue than the rest of the action body/barrel. Magazine is odd, has Canadian UCF follower, but no LB mark on body.

It is very close to the rifle shown. My guess was that rifle was more or less correct as it left the workshop.

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Hey Frederick would you post some photos? it would be nice to make some comparisons.

Correction, nearly everything metal is LB, but this trigger is Savage
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...8bd39a02-1.jpghttps://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...adb4e423-1.jpg

Here is another one that sold on gunbroker this week. I was watching it and would have bought at the sale price of $330, but I got tied up at work. Bolt Matches. Serial is 0L3149.

http://www.gunbroker.com/item/623743787

I'm guessing the '46 marked barreled bodies are dip blued. The majority of them I've seen came from Greek Reserve Stores. Maybe they were FTR'd in Greece under British/Canadian supervision. Some of the 1903 Springfields that were imported from Greece by CMP in the early 2000's had the exact same dark blue finish. As mentioned before, no one has ever found just what workshop did the rebuild programs.

Brian, you have had a lot more experience with the Greek rifles, but what I see tends to indicate the rifles were reworked in Canada before being sent overseas post war:

1) These seem to have retained a mix of very old parts and late parts such as the Savage bits and the CMK3 sight, I do not see any British bits as one would expect if the rework was done in an overseas workshop.

2) The Savage parts and late CMK#3 parts are all consistent with Canadian parts left over post 1945 (as the left over Savage parts were sent north in late 44).

3) These Mk I rifles were phased out of Canadian service post war, the Canadians supplied Norway, and Denmark with arms post war (M1917 rifles) , it is very possible the No 4 MK I rifles would have been shipped out as aid post 1946 (or Greece, though I thought the Longbranch No 4 rifles go there via England aid from Italy in the 1947 time frame).

Of course I could be wrong, it is often what you do not know that counts. I would be curious why you think it was overseas rework?

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Originally Posted by capt14k

Here is another one that sold on gunbroker this week. I was watching it and would have bought at the sale price of $330, but I got tied up at work. Bolt Matches. Serial is 0L3149.

http://www.gunbroker.com/item/623743787

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Wow that one sure slipped through the cracks

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Originally Posted by Gustro79

Wow that one sure slipped through the cracks

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It could be a result of the general drop in Enfield prices. While some of the No1s in excellent condition will sell as high as $600 (mostly Lithgows) the No4s typically are selling for $350. All Matching and Original Savages I used to see command $500+. Now $400 seems to be the top end with $350 being more common. Other matching No4s have sold for even less.

I haven't seen a 1941 Long Branch MkI sell in awhile other than the one linked above. Curious what an original and matching one would go for today.

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Originally Posted by capt14k

It could be a result of the general drop in Enfield prices. While some of the No1s in excellent condition will sell as high as $600 (mostly Lithgows) the No4s typically are selling for $350. All Matching and Original Savages I used to see command $500+. Now $400 seems to be the top end with $350 being more common. Other matching No4s have sold for even less.

I haven't seen a 1941 Long Branch MkI sell in awhile other than the one linked above. Curious what an original and matching one would go for today.

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I will buy all of your all-matching and original Savages for $400. [emoji16]

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Originally Posted by Gustro79

I will buy all of your all-matching and original Savages for $400. [emoji16]

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I will text you

Frederick,

I think you're correct that they were sent from Canada post WWII as aid to many countries. The '46 date stamp is perplexing though and the deep black blue finish isn't consistent with a Canadian FTR. Maybe they were reworked in Europe again at some point after being sent from Canada as aid. Some of these rifles were used well into the 1970's and even 1980's before being surplused.

Brian

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Originally Posted by Brian Dick

Frederick,

I think you're correct that they were sent from Canada post WWII as aid to many countries. The '46 date stamp is perplexing though and the deep black blue finish isn't consistent with a Canadian FTR. Maybe they were reworked in Europe again at some point after being sent from Canada as aid. Some of these rifles were used well into the 1970's and even 1980's before being surplused.

Brian

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If they were reworked in Belgian wouldn't there be some sort of stamping? For instance the Liege stamp. Greece seems to make sense. Darker finish, lack of markings.

Hmmm.. I will have to send pictures to someone who can post them. Never have figured out how to do the picture part. The finish on mine is not all that deep and dark, except for the barrel.

By the Bye, it is hard to get 440 dollars for a SMLE MK I*** in PA at the moment, I do think the prices of Enfield have leveled out or are falling. Folks are asking big bucks for Savages and what not, but they simply are not selling. Last big collector show saw new in the wrap No4 MK II going begging at 575 dollars (with the bayonet no less). ER SMLE MK I*** did not sell at 440 (though it had a SMLE forend but the correct MK I handguards and nice bore). Very nice No 4 MK I and MK I* rifles are a hard sell at 400 unless very nice indeed.

Might be different in different parts of the country, but that is my observation.

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Originally Posted by Frederick303

By the Bye, it is hard to get 440 dollars for a SMLE MK I*** in PA at the moment, I do think the prices of Enfield have leveled out or are falling. Folks are asking big bucks for Savages and what not, but they simply are not selling. Last big collector show saw new in the wrap No4 MK II going begging at 575 dollars (with the bayonet no less). ER SMLE MK I*** did not sell at 440 (though it had a SMLE forend but the correct MK I handguards and nice bore). Very nice No 4 MK I and MK I* rifles are a hard sell at 400 unless very nice indeed.

Might be different in different parts of the country, but that is my observation.

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Where did you get a number like $440? Lol.

Because I was the guy with the guns for sale, and no one was buying at those prices or even nibbling:

ER Irish SMLE MKI*** : 440
CR Irish SMLE MK I***: 440
The above pair for 870
No4 MK II, PF in wrap with Bayonet: 575

That is the MkII I'm talking about

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Originally Posted by Frederick303

Because I was the guy with the guns for sale, and no one was buying at those prices or even nibbling:

ER Irish SMLE MKI*** : 440
CR Irish SMLE MK I***: 440
The above pair for 870
No4 MK II, PF in wrap with Bayonet: 575

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You sold a wrapped mkII for $575...?

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Originally Posted by DiegoMenendez

You sold a wrapped mkII for $575...?

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Yeah that's what I'm saying... seconds on the wrapped mkII. [emoji16]

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Originally Posted by DiegoMenendez

You sold a wrapped mkII for $575...?

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Asking price and selling price are two different things. Also gunbroker always has outliers. I just sold a Lebel bolt mismatch and floor plate mismatch with missing rear sling swivel and missing cross bolt for $1,522. However I had it listed for weeks on the forums for $600 with no takers. That doesn't mean the Lebels are worth $1,522 just means that night two guys wanted this one.



---------- Post added at 12:50 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:49 PM ----------

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Originally Posted by Gustro79

Yeah that's what I'm saying... seconds on the wrapped mkII. [emoji16]

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Lol

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Originally Posted by capt14k

Asking price and selling price are two different things. Also gunbroker always has outliers. I just sold a Lebel bolt mismatch and floor plate mismatch with missing rear sling swivel and missing cross bolt for $1,522. However I had it listed for weeks on the forums for $600 with no takers. That doesn't mean the Lebels are worth $1,522 just means that night two guys wanted this one.



---------- Post added at 12:50 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:49 PM ----------


Lol

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[emoji16]

I can attest his Irish Enfields are also very nice. Frederick is not just a collector but a scholar of Enfields.

Did that happen to be the wrapped MkII that sold for 1,125 on GB last week?

Craziest outlier I've seen yet was the grey blanket selling a common Russian SKS for $2,500. That was about a year ago

The 575 wrapped No 4 MK II did not sell at the forks of the Delaware show at that price. No one was interested. In fairness the wrapping is tattered with the action body wrapping cut way and missing and the rifle is one of the early ones with what appears to be a hot dip, the wood is utterly covered with grease like the metal. But it had the greased and wrapped bayonet too.

I almost sold one of the SMLE MK I*** rifles (ER serial) at 425, but held out for 440. Did not make the sale.

Fact is in eastern PA except for Enfield collectors... folks have very little interest in Brit stuff. There are not many Enfield collectors or shooters, my local club has had several events planned, but had to cancel them, as there was insufficient interest to run. Gunbroker does not reflect the entire country.

On the positive side this same show is where I found my MLM MK I*, 1891 production, with the Medford barrel and Indian issue plug for 1400. A RCAF No 4 MK I* for 275, a Canadian Marked P14 for 180 (very dirty). It also works to an Enfield collectors benefit having so few interested parties in eastern PA.

Hi folks ... :)

This thread has wondered way off its original topic matter, so I've closed it... :surrender:

Some of this discussion could be continued by alternate methods available on our site, such as PM's (Private Messages), or even in real time using our built-in chat system, either in the public Lee Enfield Public Chat Room, or one on one through a private chat.

Check the bottom of your browser bar for access to any of those areas.. :thup:

Thanks .. :cheers:

Regards,
Doug