Interesting story.
Boy finds WWII plane and pilots remains
Interesting story.
Boy finds WWII plane and pilots remains
A bit more on the story;
https://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&r...eZzMlGcMjooMPg
Well, maybe the pilot can finally go home.
Apparently the new Germany don't seem to revere the return of their lost war dead like we seem to here and elsewhere. They only bring home those identified by name with living relatives otherwise they go into mass/communal graves locally. Mind you, the OLD Germany knew quite a bit about mass graves. (sorry if that glib remark was offensive to anyone)
Well, a fallen soldier should always get respect.
Look at how tenacious the aussie was to uncover the mass graves from Fromelles, if you get to read that book by Patrick Lindsay the whole effort was a wasted stunt and a tragedy personified with over 5,300+ diggers gunned down in one 24hour period our greatest loss in a single battle ill conceived as the German OP's had a good view of our back line so knew we were coming.
With grazing fire they cut their legs off and then the torso fell through the bullets. But they have found peace at last interned in the soil they fought over and will never be forgotten, the search still goes on for relatives of those identified also the identification of the diggers themselves.
I agree with Ovidio every soldier that died deserves to be brought home or at least given some dignity the Pacific engagements may prove a daunting task and would probably not interest the Japanese govt, bit like our New Guinea the diggers are out there waiting for some one to come along and find them, every country has lost souls I wonder how many are still laying in VN waiting..........?
I should have clarified the US missing soldiers sorry Clarky as I should imagine they would have a few the Australian armed forces are as stated tenacious at finding our fallen how long did they look for the Sydney wreck and finally finding her though we may never know the truth of her demise.
I might be wrong here Cinders, but hasn't Australia now accounted for all its Vietnam fallen? I seem to recall the last few were an SASR soldier and a Canberra Bomber crew, all located and remains recovered in the last 5 years.Quote:
Originally Posted by CINDERS
I personally think Germany's attitude to its fallen is disgusting, as a Government, they really don't seem to give a s***! Its a general "Nothing to do with us chief" attitude that came sharply to light following the Cold War thaw in the 1990's when bodies were recovered from the old eastern front.
I wonder what the German general public think??
People who gave their young lives for their Country deserve the right to treated with respect and have their remains repatriated and properly interned with dignity, if this isn't carried out it would strongly suggest to me that certain members of German society haven't truly learned the lessons of their own very recent past!
Germans have a very difficult relation with their recent past.
They just wasted the baby with the dirty water while trying to come to terms with it.
If you consider what happened, it is very difficult to look at it with neutral eyes if you're one of the "blemished" people, so it is probably easier to just bury everything and carry on.
Still, I bet it will slowly start to change now even in regard to the many fallen who fought well and "clean".
My experience with over 40 years of frequentation with Germans is that in the recent years they have started to ease a bit on these topics.
Might be not 100% good, but it was definitely time!
I remember the late 70ies and early 80ies there. There was not a single day where you had TV programs about the war and how mean they had been, about NS-times, dictatorship, Holocaust.
I was really impressed as a kid.
The peak might have been the late 80ies, then, very slowly, it has started to change.
But the scars are deep and still very sensitive, believe me.
I don't appreciate but can somehow understand it.
A few of the old folks now will I am sure remember this word ~ Terrorflieger............
Too right. Soldiers don't really get to pick sides. A lot of soldiers, conscripts in particular, are unwilling participants. Certainly, there are the 'true believers', but a lot are just doing what they see as duty and honourable.Quote:
Originally Posted by mrclark303
I've met a few former Wehrmacht soldaten over the years. One, a former gebirgsjaeger spent most of his time on the Eastern Front, but admitted being shifted to the Western Front late on in the war saying it was probably the only reason he didn't end up dying in a Soviet Gulag. Once, I also met a bloke (an engineer for Northrup at the time in the 1980s) who was shot down near Paris and badly burnt. Quite by coincidence, he had been at an engineering conference a few years earlier and actually met the FW190 pilot who shot him down when the 'old lads' were talking about the war in the bar after one of the conference session. They became fast friends.
Glad this post spawned such an inciteful discussion.
Thanks
I recently purchased, on eBay, a small post card with details of a fallen German soldier which I happened to notice purely by chance. I hadn't realised that these items existed but, according to the vendor, it was customary for the German family of a fallen soldier to have a batch printed for the funeral/memorial service with the details of the soldier on one side and a few religious lines/prayer on the other. With my limited German, it reads that he was an army engineer/sapper and died at the age of 24 on the Eastern Front. When I read it I thought what a waste of a life, all because a madman was in charge of his country.
If you haven't read the book, A Higher Call , by Adam Makos, you can be forgiven for not know this: At the end of the war, German fighter pilots were reviled by the German public. Goering had perpetuated a lie that the country had been let down by her fighter pilots who allowed the American "Four Motors" (bombers) to break through and ruin Germany. As a result, in postwar Germany, the surviving fighter pilots were often rejected and refused work. Worse, some were beaten when they attempted to be employed. The truth is that by the end of the war there were four classes of German pilot: Those who were flown non-stop and without a break until the odds caught up with them and were killed, the new pilots at the end of the war who were often thrown into battle with only eight to ten hours of flight training and were immediately shot down and killed*, those so badly wounded they couldn't return to battle, and a very small handful, about thirty, who were good enough to survive.
By the end of the war, those who were good enough to survive were gathered in Adolph Galland's veterans squadron who were allowed to fly the very last of the ME262 Schwalb fighters until there was no fuel left to fly them. The surviving rank and file pilots faced this ostracism and hate. Some of the lucky ones moved away to other countries to start again.
Perhaps a remanent of this attitude remains in the ambivalence towards the fallen fighter pilots.
Bob
* Or were killed by the BF109G, which was known as an extremely temperamental, menacing aircraft. German airfields often had a pile of metal off to the left, three-quarters of the way down the strip. At that point on the strip the 109G had lifting its tail and began to veer. Most suggested that you just allow the plane to slightly veer and not try to prevent it because an attempt pull her back on centerline would usually cause a crash. The plane was known as a novice-killer. We've got a 109G at the local museum. The test pilot who certified this plane to be flown in U.S. airspace described the G models he's flown as a group as a plane with a lurking menace that wants to kill the unwary pilot. The up-rated Daimler engine and improved prop overpowered the small tail control surfaces until the plane was actually in the air.
The crew of a German bomber did surrender to my Grandfather during WW2 because he was the first person to reach the aircraft after it had been shot down near the east coast of Essex in the area of Clacton. He served in the Home guard throughout the war but on this occasion he was only armed with his own personal pistol. When he got to the scene the crew were standing at the side of the aircraft and seemed happy to surrender; they were fully compliant and made no attempt to escape, just pleased to be out of the war probably. When regular British soldiers arrived to take charge of the prisoners my Grandfather was disgusted with some of the regular soldiers for taking personal items off the prisoners such as watches. My Grandfather did protest about this behaviour but there was little else that he could do by himself.
If you want to know more about German pilots, together with Galland's book, I'd suggest "The Blonde Knight Of Germany", by Toliver and Constable about Erich Hartmann, the ace with the highest number of victories ever, and "Stuka Pilot", from Hans- Ulrich Rudel.
I read Rudel at age 12 in Italian and reread it a fair amount of times. Then I bought it in German and got even more tangled up with that book. In German you understand the kind of person: amazing!
Hartmann's story is somewhat parallel and as gripping, though a bit more "aseptic", considering he was a fighter pilot and had a somewhat different approach to war. Plus it has been written by writers and not by himself directly.
These two are among the few expert ones who survived the war and lived to be old.
Great reads!
On a similar vain and a very similar story, is about "Mick" Mannock VC, DSO & Two Bars, MC & Bar, who was a British flying ace in the Royal Flying Corps during the First World War.
It is believed his grave has been found, but there appears a reluctance to exhume the body of an "Unknown Airman of the First World war" marked on the GWGC gravestone, and use DNA to rightfully correct his final resting place as one of our national heroes of that war.
Lets hope the powers at be, one day see some sense, as this current unmarked grave of a pilot is the only one near, where the German infantry recovered the body of Mannock from his burnt out plane after it developed engine failure, and buried him nearby. After the war they informed the British Government, but due to him crashing near the front months before the end of the war, exact locations of his burial were probably lost in time!
Quite the credentials...Quote:
Originally Posted by Gil Boyd
Jim,
Yes certainly is. At least the German pilot has been found, and will after all this time have a befitting burial and ceremony hopefully by a grateful nation for his sacrifice.
I'll be honest here and admit that was the only thing that I as a Catholic worried about in Vietnam, being killed, lost and not have a Christian burial.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gil Boyd
Paul,
No doubt ................as did we all!!!
If you travel to Viet Nam, go to the battlefield of Dien Bien Phu.
NASTY battle (or series of battles, really). Are there any "nice" battles, anyway?
The Viets maintain war graves in the region. A rather extensive one for Giap's fallen troops is a bit stark and marked by an imposing entrance The graves are generally unmarked, and, in many cases, may have no known occupant, but there is a wall containing a LOT of names at the entrance.
The "foreign" memorials are neatly maintained by both the locals and visiting Legion veterans and or their next of kin / families. There is a Legion memorial in the center of the fortified camp of Dien Bien Phu, a hundred metres or so from the remains of General De Castries old command post. The memorial was built in 1998 on the initiative of Germany legionnaire Sergeant named Rolf Rodel.
In the South, for many years after "reuinification", the cemeteries containing the remains of, or memorials to, ARVN and other "southern" forces, were studiously "neglected", but not desecrated.
Last time I was there, it seemed that things have mellowed a bit, and, whilst still "subdued" in nature, they are at least being tended by someone.
Thanks. It is a very difficult page in history. I finished reading "Street Without Joy" a few days ago, after reading "The Last Valley".
I really would like to go and see the place.
Roaming old battlefields around my hometown is an incredibly enlightening thing.
That one would really interest me ane be worth the trip around half the world.
As an ex-serving member, I find it truly humbling that fellows have the ability to look upon a former foe and respect them as a soldier doing their duty as an individual. As has been said, few of these fellows had much say in the matter, it was a different time, a different society, different measures. This approach takes courage and integrity. Thank you all, its speaks much of you.
Rethinking my original post, perhaps I may have been read to convey a vague and blanket forgiving message. That was not my intent and I hope this is evident.
I am vehemently opposed to certain former and current enemy values and behaviours that has lead to atrocities. War is bad enough in its senseless waste, but it takes an inconceivable mind to result in complete removal of boundaries when applying force to prosecute a political will. It would be unreasonable to judge every adversary in the same manner as the genuine evil-doers. Perhaps this ability defines 'good' humans.
Thought long and hard before I put pen to paper here..... I'm sure that I won't be the only one here tending to slightly disagree with some of the sympathies in this thread. Soldiers of regularly constituted armies really don't think about their enemy and if I might be so bold as to say it, regard irregular/terrorist type, freedom fighter foe such as....., well I won't name any sort in particular as nothing more than, er......... Another difficult term that is difficult to explain. Australian/NZ regarded both the VC and NVA as the British regarded PIRA et al as ISAF regard current insurgents. And as the situation drags on - and on, regard them with more and more loathing. And the passage of time does NOT make these evil thoughts any less.
Might be different if you are fighting another regularly constituted Army where there is a win or lose at the end of it. Sorry if I've said the wrong BUT PRAGMATIC thing
Sadly, civilians have always been "involuntarily involved" in warfare for a very long time.
Be it the classic Medieval siege, the appalling excesses of several major players in WW2, or the cold-blooded slaughter of civilians, especially children, so favoured by some "groups" today. some mongrel always seems to think it is entirely reasonable (necessary??) to machine-gun fleeing refugees, booby-trap children's toys, burn crops and slaughter livestock, etc., etc..
Sometimes the result of this "calculus" takes on a "life" of its own; Dresden, Hiroshima, Warsaw, Burma-Thailand railway, the torpedoing of hospital ships, (eg., AHS Centaur), etc..
And then, there are the ALMOST inexplicable; Pol Pot's Khmer Rouge for starters. One of the darkest manifestation of "human nature" I have ever encountered: the "human face" of "ideological purity".
Peter,
I think you are right its SOP I'm afraid, otherwise you would never pull the trigger before he did!!
You are in it to win it, and thats the Firefight too!
Thanks for that Gil...... I'd been expecting a bit of flack and had my helmet on! As soon as the first bullets go down, it's obedience and battle drills
That and weapons drills. That's why we do them, so they're instinctive.Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Laidler
We weren't talking about a Jahaddi here anyway, just a guy that was doing the same thing our forerunners were in that place. Uniformed and far from home...
I believe that I am correct instating that Luftwaffe Aircrew who were killed on operations over the U.K. were shown respect when there was body available to bury which wasn't always the case. Likewise I believe that the Germans generally showed allied aircrew who had been killed respect when there was a body available to bury.
I know from my Father's experiences of war, as a child living on the Essex coast, that War is a dirty business and people unfortunately get killed. Who gets killed, who gets injured and who gets away unscathed is often down to nothing more than luck. In my Father's case he suffered hearing damage and what would probably be called today post traumatic stress disorder. Ironically because of this when he received his call-up papers for National Service, during the Korean War, he was found to be medically unfit for military service. He did have to take 2 army medicals 6 months apart before this decision was reached but if he hadn't received serious ear damage during WW2 he could well have gone to Korea and been killed there. So the fact that he had been bombed and because of the hearing damage this may have saved his life because it meant that he wasn't required to join the army and possibly go to Korea.
Thanks for that Jim, I was starting to loose track on this........ think we all agree he should get the burial he deserves, although I doubt it will be the same as Hans-Ulrich Rudel, see below part of transcript from Wikipedia.Quote:
Originally Posted by browningautorifle
I come across Rudel when I was searching info on, Ulrich Steinhilper who wrote, A Spitfire on My Tail and Ten Minutes to Buffalo, both very good books and well worth a read.
Think it was in the Magazine "Britain at War" that tells the tail of one pilot who was shot down and the Home Guard who captured him, took him to the pub for a few pints.......
Rudel died after suffering another stroke in Rosenheim on 18 December 1982,[82] and was buried in Dornhausen on 22 December 1982. During Rudel's burial ceremony, two Bundeswehr F-4 Phantoms appeared to make a low altitude flypast over his grave. Although Dornhausen was situated in the middle of a flightpath regularly flown by military aircraft, Bundeswehr officers denied deliberately flying aircraft over the funeral. Four mourners were photographed giving Nazi salutes at the funeral, and were investigated under a law banning the display of Nazi symbols. The Federal Minister of Defense Manfred Wörner declared that the flight of the aircraft had been a normal training exercise
Not in the slightest, though where Jews and other non-combatants were concerned, there was a concerted campaign from 1943 on to dig up their mass graves and burn the remains before the Soviets captured the areas. And of course the Soviets were no strangers to mass graves either.Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Laidler
Compare Big Dukes thread 30 to mine - and similar in many ways. My friend, a wartime bomber flight engineer passed away and was to be buried locally. So without telling a soul, I asked the RAF flying base nearby whether they might fly over the funeral service. They couldn't actually fly over the service UNLESS, perhaps, by chance and pure coincidence of course, there was a training flight passing 'nearby'. And even then, if the events did coincide - which the might, possibly, by coincidence alone -, it was to be a private matter between the RAF, the family and myself. At the due time a Merlin helicopter did a VERY low sweep with an RAF flag fluttering in reverence and respect, suspended on a ball below it, flew across the church yard, made a distinct hover and bow and flew off whence it came. I did telephone them later and spoke to the flying control centre who were organising the 'training flights' that day, to be told '......we always look after our own'
This is something I really appreciate. Really!
This attachment shows that the German War Graves Service are very proactive in repatriation where necessary or by families requests have them relocated elsewhere.
This shows how in one case it happened, and one has to assume the same will be bestowed on the Mesherschmit pilot to:
Bodies of two Luftwaffe pilots that have lain in unmarked grave since 1940 to be relocated after historians finally identify them | Daily Mail Online
This thread reared its ugly head in the UK yesterday when a former member of a terrorist organisation died. As usual, the bleeding hearts were up to their usual old ways. What was particularly worthy of note was that the news organisations didn't seem to ask old soldiers of the era with many tours of the place under their belts their opinions and thoughts about this sad loss.
Considering there the ones after all these years now being persecuted for defending both sides of the fence from the person you speak of............Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Laidler
Now THIS could turn political...
Are former British soldiers still being investigated simply for serving their country and doing their duty, under very difficult circumstances, on the streets of Northern Ireland?
I THINK that the actual investigations are complete now. It's just the formulation of the actual offences committed and the charges pending that are awaiting
I think that the British general public will be outraged if former soldiers end up being prosecuted.
That will only be the Brexit ones..... as the remainers seem very blinkered............ and sorry for themselves.Quote:
Originally Posted by Flying10uk
Assuming for a moment that any at all actual charges are placed against ex-forces members at this late date, then there damn well better be serious charges fully prosecuted against ex-PIRA members as well starting at the top with Gerry Adams and Martin McGuinness.Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Laidler
Look up the Good Friday Agreement.
Too late though...Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul S.
Gents,
This is a subject going off the thread slightly which effects a lot of people.
One that needs to be dealt with like a "hot potato" IMHO, as you will never please everybody in this political minefield.
The NI Historical Enquiry Team have their mandate, one that may be coming to an end, once those in central Government see the error of their ways.
Anyway, what happeend to the pilot of the crashed ME-109?;)
Didn't find anymore info, but reminds me of a bloke I met at the War and Peace show few years back, think I've told the story a few times but he was in to Planes etc and part of a archaeologist team who go and find missing planes etc, (one thing about the W&P show, you will meet some very interesting folk who have an interest like us in all manor of military, aviation etc) this guy was a collector of a certain panel on a Heinkel (is it a crash panel or emergency panel ?) ....... he mentioned the area we were at and not so far away was a farm with a crashed plane and some of the crew, still there, the Women who owned the farm or land didn't anyone to touch it and wrote it in here will or something similar........ further in the conversation he talked of a plane that was found in Russia, although the team was looking for something else they had found this up in the trees, obvious the trees had acted as jack over time, once they managed to get to the plane and remove the cockpit, the pilot was still there........Quote:
Originally Posted by Gil Boyd
This link is particularly interesting especially the search for a plane in Papua New Guinea and looking at the aircraft fairly in tact after a rough landing is amazing.
As said before my Dad was part of an RAF team that did exactly that, search for downed aircraft in jungle areas of Borneo/Sarawak and Malaya. Although young at the time he was often gone for weeks at a time, but they always seemed to be successful in recovering remains.
Unknowingly, probably where I get my interest in a similar sphere of graves I suppose!!
https://www.wired.com/2013/04/findin...ing-airplanes/
There is, in a likeminded topic, lots of WW2 stuff in the deserts of Libya and Egypt especially Sherman tanks and LRDG vehicles.
Not by much.Quote:
Originally Posted by browningautorifle
I suppose I really should watch the news for something other than the weather report.
Gil, apologies for the digression.
I have the same interest Gil, probably linked with my interest in history.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gil Boyd
Quote:
Originally Posted by browningautorifle
One final comment on "that man" Gil .... More's the pity Jim, unfortunately the producers and directors of that terrorist horror show (on both sides of the divide) will never pay for their crimes...