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Hi Guys
I have just bought a No4 MK1* which is clearly marked Long Branch 1944 on the receiver. However the bolt and stock collar have the number 16C62##. Is this a mating of the 2 factories. When would it have been done much later or at the time of fabrication.
Regards Chubbs
Let me mention a typical scenario that could explain the situation as it has occurred many times to my knowledge in the UK - and probably in many other Armourers shops throughout the world.
85 various No4, No8, No5, Stens, Sterlings, L1A1's (notorious.....) etc etc go from the Ordnance Depot or a unit for some reason, into the main workshops for a total overhaul/rebuild. During the rebuild, following a complete, every last nut and bolt strip down and examination of every part, the slow assembly takes place. At the final out-inspection stage, there are 85 like brand new rifles but because of the actual bead blasting process, the phosphating and hard oven bake painting, 7 of them don't have easily identyifiable serial numbers. So the under worked R&I clerk double checks the paperwork against the rifles ready to go out and identifies the serial numbers missing from the rifles. He then send a note back to the In Inspector at the Armourers workshop that tells him that these 7 rifles are missing OR have unidentifiable serial numbers. But don't worry, the serial numbers, identified from the paperwork OR the unit WOCS books are these, xxxxx, xxxxx, xxxxx and so on.
So a supplementary job card/number is allocated and the Armourer will renumber each of the rifles with one of the numbers on the list. So 85 rifles come in and 85 fully identifiable rifles go out............... Naughty but that's a fact of how life works at the sharp end!
The alternative is for some form of fraud in its past
Some of the real experts will chime in and give other plausible (and some total rubbish too I expect......) explanations but that's my experience.
Cdn army practice was that if a rifle body was beyond repair a new body would be stamped the n/s body serial number and reissued.
The ones I have seen over the years made me think the shop jacked the serial number up and built a new rifle under it.
Your explanation is ambiguous Green. Are you saying that a new body, fresh from Canadian Ordnance stores would have an LB serial number on it?
That policy always seemed a bit strange or alien to us UK Armourers because if the BODY (the master component) was beyond repair/worn out - or whatever, then by default, so would or might be the remainder of the parts. And you'd STILL have to fit the barrel which was always by selective fitting in the first instance, that's why we had a rack full to try the best fit from. And you'd still have to fit the fore-end and the bolt. A bit like putting new uppers on a pair of shoes because the soles haven't worn out yet!
I would note that pre 1926 ish, I'm told that the British practice was to use the barrel serial number as the master serial number - and have observed several actions with cancelled original serial numbers "force matched" to the barrel serial number.Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Laidler
So from that observation, the Canadian practice of using replacement receivers was similar to an earlier British practice.
Bare Long Branch No4MkI* actions dated 1944 + 1945 were available from ord. stores with no serial numbers.
1954,55 & 56 dated Long Branch actions usually show out of year sequence or LB manufacturer serial numbers, demonstrating that they were ALL? Used simply as replacement receivers rather than for any production run.
This practice extended to (i've been told) Inglis High Powers and I have seen FN C1 & C2 rifle receivers with no original serial numbers.
Having said all of that, nearly all of the Long Branch No4 rifles that I have personally seen with Savage (or out of sequence/manufacturer) serial numbers show signs of the original serial number being removed.
I would respectfully disagree with whoever told you that L-E (thread 6, line 1. The body was always the master component (the accountable part) as we call it and never available as a replacement part from Ordnance in UK service and Aust/.NZ, certainly up to Base workshops where I worked. Look in the parts lists and the body is always marked as N/A for not available. There has been some discussion that this wasn't quite the case with later L1A1's in NZ for logistical reasons. But that's another matter.
:rofl: Pretty funny...Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Laidler
[QUOTE=Lee Enfield;394090]I would note that pre 1926 ish, I'm told that the British practice was to use the barrel serial number as the master serial number - and have observed several actions with cancelled original serial numbers "force matched" to the barrel serial number.
So from that observation, the Canadian practice of using replacement receivers was similar to an earlier British practice.
Bare Long Branch No4MkI* actions dated 1944 + 1945 were available from ord. stores with no serial numbers.
1954,55 & 56 dated Long Branch actions usually show out of year sequence or LB manufacturer serial numbers, demonstrating that they were ALL? Used simply as replacement receivers rather than for any production run.
Thanks for the replies
I guess then there is no way of knowing whether its a repaired savage or Longbranch.
Regards Chubbs
Without a photo of the bodyside markings there's no chance of identifying the originality of it.
[QUOTE=Chubbs;394174]Post a photo of the receiver markings and (partial) serial number.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee Enfield
Hi Peter
Which markings would they be? ie where abouts on the side.
Regards Lee
Here are the photos of all the markings.
Attachment 81949
Attachment 81950
Attachment 81951
Attachment 81952
Attachment 81953
Attachment 81954
Attachment 81955
It's a 1944 Long Branch - Canadian made rifle that someones re-numbered for reasons best known to themselves. I expect someone will come in and explain the markings shown in photo 7.
I'm sure you're referring to the Italian proof marks?Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Laidler
the Italian Navy rifles were stored separately from their bolts and while some of them were matched up with their original bolts, some were just easier to renumber by the retailer...in this case apparently the receiver instead of the bolt.
explaining the recent and splotchy Parkerizing where the original serial number was removed and the receiver re-contoured.
the early BSA manufactured barrel is interesting too...
Does having a different bolt affect how the rifle shoots or is it just for the collectors that it makes a difference. It also looks like a new head on the bolt.
regards Chubbs
To answer that question you'll have to read a short article about fitting bolts. Then test yours to see whether it is fitted properly. If it IS, then all is well. If not, get it fitted properly, as per those instructional details, by someone who knows what he's doing and NOT your local enthusiastic amateur mate
It appears to me that an un-informed fellow used the pantograph he had to match the rifle to the stamped Savage bolt he had. Un-aware that the "Long Branch" tells truth to his ruse.
The receiver number is cut, not stamped. Look at the differences between the bolt and the receiver number.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chubbs
Sorry to disagree Limpet but I think that the new number has been simply stamped onto the butt socket and definately not cut, -as in an engraving machine! Too uneven. But the fact is that it has an registered and identifiable number now. Mind you, so presumably has the original......., with the same number!
Seems much too even to me. The depth is too uniform. No matter, I'd pass on it were it offered to me.
When we were apprentices we were taught to stamp material during the basic phase. To get it in line we were taught to stick a piece of tape along the bottom and top line EXACTLY the width of the letter/number stamps. Just carefully drop the stamp face into the 'slot' so to speak - then hit! Everything we did was marked by the teachers. We had to test the suitability of the material first which was always a bit of a hit and miss if you'll excuse the pun. So they'd pass a really hard piece of material to everyone and sure enough, it'd flatten the face of the stamp. Caught me out every time and still does looking at the figure 0 on my stamp set!
The Fazakerly stamped serials are notoriously uneven and poorly stamped. No question they are hand stamped with individual dies. The later Long Branch series, 22L and on have a consistency that leads me to believe they were in a jig or a device that advanced the number per each strike. Much like a counter in a platen press. Do you have any insight into this? Thanks, L
Why would you pass on it. What would the problem be.Quote:
Originally Posted by limpetmine
Regards Chubbs
I don't think it's original.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chubbs
Time to eat some crow. In updating the Long Branch serial number list, I noticed that there is one other 1955 dated Long Branch with a Savage serial number. So anything appears to be possible.
Quote:
Originally Posted by limpetmine
I wouldn't worry about it nun Limpet. I know where there's a Fazakerley Mk1 with a Long Branch 'L' number not 5 miles from here.
Hi Peter.
Remember me, Geoff Ives, Firearms Committee in the 1980 ?
---------- Post added at 11:03 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:02 AM ----------
Hi Peter.
Remember me. Geoff Ives Firearms Committee in the 1980's?
Test it how Peter?Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Laidler
The marks on the socket look like someone using a power sander without taking the butt off the rifle. The larger profile or "overhang" of the butt has prevented the sander hitting the back edge of the socket.
Just touch the material against a grindstone ........ Bright yellow to whiteish sparks and you're in trouble......
Hi guys I just gained a long branch no4 mk1 1943 with matching numbers on the receiver and bolt. I want to find out more information about this gun. I think it was originally a long stock gun and was cut down to the short stock model but not sure any help would be appreciated!
Cut down?
Pictures or it doesn't exist.
I remember reading that when Savage stopped making Lee Enfields, all the unused parts and unfinished rifles were shipped across the border to the Longbranch factory. If that is the case, you have a Savage rifle that was partially built at the Savage plant but finished at the Longbranch plant. I would hang on to that one.
As in sporterized, or a C.A.L. gun...?Quote:
Originally Posted by Fuller82