Gun List Opinions requested any and all information welcome

Hello all. Im new here, and I've posed a question or two already. I was directed here to the gen thread to put a list of milsurp guns out there that I am interested in owning, either because I think they are aesthetically pleasing to the eye, or honestly because I saw them in a game called Battlefield 1, and enjoyed them virtually and would now like to enjoy them physically. In the process of looking up the guns from the game, I became entangled in this new world I never new about, or just never bothered to look into. And now I think I may be hooked. I have yet to buy my first milsurp rifle, so I am still in the process of shopping around. Without further ado this is my list of guns I am interested in.

Please feel free to comment on any one of them. As an example

"Oh no that gun will be near impossible to get", or "That one is a horrible shooter", maybe if I'm lucky i'll hear "Yea that gun wouldn't be bad. Heck I would even be happy with a list of Y's and N's. Also let me know if you feel I left any out, I will definitely look them up.

(1) 99 Arisaka
(2) Finnish M39
(3) Gewehr 88
(4) Gewehr M95
(5) Gewehr 98
(6) KAR 98AZ
(7) KAR 98K
(8) M1 Garand
(9) M48 Yugoslavian
(10) M59/66 SKS
(11) Mannlicher M1895 "Stutzen"
(12) Mosin Nagant M91-30
(13) Mousqueton MLE.16
(14) M-14
(15) Martini Henry
(16)SMLE MKiii
(17) Winchester M1895

Sorry for the long list.

Thank you for your time -Timm

(1) 99 Arisaka - Easy to find, $200+, ammo hard to get
(2) Finnish M39 - A little harder, $300+, ammo easy to get
(3) Gewehr 88 - A little harder to get, original German very hard to find, Turk issue (they are German, just altered) easier and less expensive, ammo easy to get but make sure you get low powered rounds and make sure which type you need
(4) Gewehr M95 - Harder than the carbines and more expensive $400+, original surplus ammo still around, new production available from privi
(5) Gewehr 98 - Getting hard to find, and $600+, ammo easy to get
(6) KAR 98AZ - Extremely hard to find and $800+, ammo easy to get
(7) KAR 98K - Getting hard to find, prices start at $400 for Russian Captures and over $1000 for all matching, ammo easy to get
(8) M1 Garand - Very common but expect to pay a minimum of $800, Ammo is specific to the rifle, regular 30-06 shouldn't be used but still easy to get
(9) M48 Yugoslavian - Very common around $300, ammo easy to get
(10) M59/66 SKS - Don't see these much anymore, probably around $400+, ammo easy to get
(11) Mannlicher M1895 "Stutzen" - See these on the secondary market, lot of guys bought them when they came out, found out they kick like a mule and decided to sell them, $250+, surplus ammo still around and new privie production
(12) Mosin Nagant M91-30 - Used to be everywhere, might be again if the import restrictions are lifted, about $275 now, ammo easy to get
(13) Mousqueton MLE.16 - One of the easiest French rifles to get but still not common, seem to start around $300, ammo hard to get
(14) M-14 - Forget it, none on the market, full auto. Semi-auto versions are made but are not original. If you could find one, probably $20,000 but that's a wild guess. Semi-auto new rifles are about $1500, ammo easy to get
(15) Martini Henry - They are out there but you have to watch constantly. Most common now are Nepal rifles which are long lever, depending on condition, $300 for poor going up rapidly for better examples, ammo hard to get
(16)SMLE MKiii - Getting harder to find and $400+, ammo easy to get
(17) Winchester M1895 - Milsurp examples almost impossible to find and very pricey. Several thousand probably unless in really bad condition, ammo depends on caliber, Russian easy to get

Pretty good list you have there. Might want to add a British MKII No 4 and/or No 5, and an Italian Carcano of some sort.

I saw on your Arisaka thread you were very new to this and were not sure where to find them. Your best bet is gun shows. I see you are in Maryland but no idea where. Lots of good gun shows in eastern PA from Oaks near Philly to Harrisburg, York, Gettysburg which are all fairly close to eastern Maryland. I more or less base my ease of purchase from attending these shows. There was an excellent show just two weekends ago in Timonium Maryland. I think that happens only once a year though. Do a web search for Eagle Arms, they are the ones that put on the bigger PA shows I'm familier with. Lots of smaller shows but I wouldn't recommend driving that far to get to them. Gunbroker is an option but you have to pay shipping which is often around $40 and then an FFL transfer fee which is $20 and up depending on who does it for you. You might try some online sites that have classifieds for face to face purchases. These have to be local for obvious reasons. Pennsylvania has one. Usually the guys will drive partway to meet but I usually just ignore anything that is more than two hours away. Cabelas in Delaware gets a lot of Milsurps but their prices can be high. I've still bought a few there so it just depends.

You left out Springfields, pistols and machineguns. A 30-40 Krag maybe?

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Originally Posted by Aragorn243

(1) 99 Arisaka - Easy to find, $200+, ammo hard to get
(2) Finnish M39 - A little harder, $300+, ammo easy to get
(3) Gewehr 88 - A little harder to get, original German very hard to find, Turk issue (they are German, just altered) easier and less expensive, ammo easy to get but make sure you get low powered rounds and make sure which type you need
(4) Gewehr M95 - Harder than the carbines and more expensive $400+, original surplus ammo still around, new production available from privi
(5) Gewehr 98 - Getting hard to find, and $600+, ammo easy to get
(6) KAR 98AZ - Extremely hard to find and $800+, ammo easy to get
(7) KAR 98K - Getting hard to find, prices start at $400 for Russian Captures and over $1000 for all matching, ammo easy to get
(8) M1 Garand - Very common but expect to pay a minimum of $800, Ammo is specific to the rifle, regular 30-06 shouldn't be used but still easy to get
(9) M48 Yugoslavian - Very common around $300, ammo easy to get
(10) M59/66 SKS - Don't see these much anymore, probably around $400+, ammo easy to get
(11) Mannlicher M1895 "Stutzen" - See these on the secondary market, lot of guys bought them when they came out, found out they kick like a mule and decided to sell them, $250+, surplus ammo still around and new privie production
(12) Mosin Nagant M91-30 - Used to be everywhere, might be again if the import restrictions are lifted, about $275 now, ammo easy to get
(13) Mousqueton MLE.16 - One of the easiest French rifles to get but still not common, seem to start around $300, ammo hard to get
(14) M-14 - Forget it, none on the market, full auto. Semi-auto versions are made but are not original. If you could find one, probably $20,000 but that's a wild guess. Semi-auto new rifles are about $1500, ammo easy to get
(15) Martini Henry - They are out there but you have to watch constantly. Most common now are Nepal rifles which are long lever, depending on condition, $300 for poor going up rapidly for better examples, ammo hard to get
(16)SMLE MKiii - Getting harder to find and $400+, ammo easy to get
(17) Winchester M1895 - Milsurp examples almost impossible to find and very pricey. Several thousand probably unless in really bad condition, ammo depends on caliber, Russian easy to get

Pretty good list you have there. Might want to add a British MKII No 4 and/or No 5, and an Italian Carcano of some sort.

I saw on your Arisaka thread you were very new to this and were not sure where to find them. Your best bet is gun shows. I see you are in Maryland but no idea where. Lots of good gun shows in eastern PA from Oaks near Philly to Harrisburg, York, Gettysburg which are all fairly close to eastern Maryland. I more or less base my ease of purchase from attending these shows. There was an excellent show just two weekends ago in Timonium Maryland. I think that happens only once a year though. Do a web search for Eagle Arms, they are the ones that put on the bigger PA shows I'm familier with. Lots of smaller shows but I wouldn't recommend driving that far to get to them. Gunbroker is an option but you have to pay shipping which is often around $40 and then an FFL transfer fee which is $20 and up depending on who does it for you. You might try some online sites that have classifieds for face to face purchases. These have to be local for obvious reasons. Pennsylvania has one. Usually the guys will drive partway to meet but I usually just ignore anything that is more than two hours away. Cabelas in Delaware gets a lot of Milsurps but their prices can be high. I've still bought a few there so it just depends.

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Thank you so much. This was more than I could have imagined. I'm going to copy and paste this into word so I can keep it for future reference.

What Aragorn said. That is a very good rundown of the more common milsurps.
Happy hunting!

Personally I think it is great you are getting interested in history....I would look into some of the things on youtube and you can learn more about what you are looking at, forgotten weapons and C&Rsenal. Both have some good info if you are interested in this stuff.

Past that only thing I would add is the prices given are a bit on the low side around here.....but like most things, where you are depends on how much some of this stuff goes for.

The other thing I would suggest is look into finding someone in your area....us guys with these old guns can be an odd bunch....some times we like to see other people shoot them for the first time.....you can get a feel for what you are looking at. I would suggest starting on the easy to get and inexpensive route first. Don't over look the good ole' 91/30....a great entry drug into the world of surplus.

Nice list, and looks like Aragorn has a great detailed response. Also I'll echo Vincent on adding a Springfield 1903 and some pistols.
Of your list I only own and have shot the Finn M39, mosin 91-30, SMLE, and M1 Garand. The Garand puts the biggest smile on my face and would be my top choice. Greek surplus ammo for it used to be plentiful from the CMP, not sure now. The M39 and 91-30 are great for shooting large caliber centerfire for cheap $ per round, but the caveat is that the surplus ammo is corrosive so you have to be diligent in cleaning after every session.

I went down this road almost 10 years ago, but currently I get more enjoyment shooting handguns than rifles. Plenty of cool historic examples to look for in that area too.

I own but have not shot all but two on the list, the M-14 and the Winchester 1895.

I have shot the Mosin Nagant, the SMLE MKIII, the SKS and the Garand. I do have ammo for all. A lot of people complain about the recoil on the Mosin Nagant but recoil never bothered me much so I didn't find it excessive. The SKS is fun to shoot, as are most semi-autos. The Garand is also a fun rifle to shoot. A bit heavy but very little recoil due to the weight and action. I hunted with the SMLE and killed two deer with it. The only Milsurp I've taken into the woods. Bolt is very smooth on these.

Springfields are expensive buggers. best bet is an O3A3, I see these starting at $500 and going up. A 1903 will probably start at $900. If you see one for less than that, be very careful I have encountered two individuals selling them in the $600 range but both were low serial number rifles which they advise you to not fire. To me a rifle I can't shoot, although it's obvious I don't often shoot, is no good.

There is also the M1 Carbine which is another very fun rifle although it is so tiny, it just doesn't feel like a rifle to me. These start at $900 and go up pretty fast.

Before buying a Garand or Carbine, you need to do some serious research to ensure you don't get shafted. Lots of "fakes", reworked deactivated rifles, welded cut receivers, cast receivers that are not original, etc.

If your going to buy online get yourself a C&R license makes so much sense, Pays for itself fast. If you attend any of those big shows out east look me up might have a deal or 2 for you.

Aragorn covered it well. I also agree with Mike a C&R is a great thing to have for online purchases. I actually use mine more for in person stuff at auctions but either way it's saved me a ton of time and money.

I'd be real cautious of 03s unless you know what to look for... as mentioned there are now a fair amount of reactivated drill rifles out there, and the low numbers are also unshootable for different reasons. One thing is you probably won't be an expert on the gun before you buy it, but you'll have a lot better idea once you get one in your hands, go over it, and find out about all the variants. Collector quality books are always a good investment as well for specific areas of interest - the Honeycutt and McCollum books on Arisakas come to mind.

One thing I see missing is Swiss rifles. If you want in on one do it now. K31s are going up fast, and it seems like the last of the of the 89/11s and 1911s in distributors are gone too. Ammo is out there. They are probably some of, if not the, best shooting milsurp bolt action rifles out there. Quality is fantastic as well. Just avoid the earlier 1889 Schmidt-Rubins as I recall you can't run them with modern GP11 spec smokeless ammo. Maybe not as easy to get as 8mm or x54r new, but it's in pretty regular production from what I've seen thanks to PPU and there is a decent quantity of surplus out there right now which can't be said for 8mm or x54r.

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Originally Posted by cipherk98

and the low numbers are also unshootable for different reasons.

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This garbage again....

I tell you what OP....if you do find a "low number" springfield do some research on it....find out just how many really had an issue and make your choice from there.

I can tell you I own one and I do shoot it....I have no worries about it being "unshootable" vs anything else.....any of these things are getting pretty long in the tooth....so if you don't know yourself have them checked out.

as to low numbers being unshootable....pure internet lore that gets puked up time and time again.

This will get you started....but in the end make your choice....but make an informed choice and don't spew internet garbage.

Information On M1903 Receiver Failures

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Originally Posted by cherokee

don't spew internet garbage

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That's right, don't spew garbage...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by cherokee

as to low numbers being unshootable....pure internet lore that gets puked up time and time again.

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Of course they are shootable but why take the risk. Did you actually read the article that you provided the link to? I mean, we take a risk every time we shoot one of these 100 year old rifles of any type. But the US Army withdrew these rifles from service. There were 68 receiver failures which caused at least one death and the loss of 4 eyes and many other injuries from minor to serious. Who knows how many failed in battle, I doubt there are any records of that as the cause of death would be attributed to something else. Springfield had a receiver failure rate of 6.3 per 100,000 rifles. They had several commissions on these rifles to determine what to do with them, even shutting down production during WWI at both plants. Being the military of course, money and budgetary as well as political fallout all took precedence over the welfare of the troops that had to carry them so little was done until a small military allowed them to withdraw them from service gradually and not re-issue them, holding them in emergency reserve.

Just because you shoot your low serial number rifle and haven't had any problems does not mean we should accept your word that they are safe. It has not failed YET. These rifles did not fail on their first shot but did fail on their last shot. Haw many in between is the big question.

I'm personally not willing to take the risk. I also refuse to fire my Italian Vetterli converted to 6.5 carcano and will not purchase a Spanish Mauser small ring which was converted to NATO standard. With so many other things out there, WHAT IS THE PURPOSE?

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Originally Posted by Aragorn243

Of course they are shootable but why take the risk. Did you actually read the article that you provided the link to? I mean, we take a risk every time we shoot one of these 100 year old rifles of any type. But the US Army withdrew these rifles from service. There were 68 receiver failures which caused at least one death and the loss of 4 eyes and many other injuries from minor to serious. Who knows how many failed in battle, I doubt there are any records of that as the cause of death would be attributed to something else. Springfield had a receiver failure rate of 6.3 per 100,000 rifles. They had several commissions on these rifles to determine what to do with them, even shutting down production during WWI at both plants. Being the military of course, money and budgetary as well as political fallout all took precedence over the welfare of the troops that had to carry them so little was done until a small military allowed them to withdraw them from service gradually and not re-issue them, holding them in emergency reserve.

Just because you shoot your low serial number rifle and haven't had any problems does not mean we should accept your word that they are safe. It has not failed YET. These rifles did not fail on their first shot but did fail on their last shot. Haw many in between is the big question.

I'm personally not willing to take the risk. I also refuse to fire my Italian Vetterli converted to 6.5 carcano and will not purchase a Spanish Mauser small ring which was converted to NATO standard. With so many other things out there, WHAT IS THE PURPOSE?

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I am in full agreement with this post and to add to it: People make the assumption they will never have some kind of failure of the case, get a bad round, have some issue cause excess pressure, etc. Something that will hold up under normal conditions but has no margin of safety is not safe. A rifle receiver can be viewed as a pressure vessel, and no one is going to use a pressure vessel that is good to 100% of rated pressure and at 105% could fail. This is my take away from that report in regards to the ammunition failures being one of the leading causes, that improperly treated receivers that survive may not be strong enough to cope with malfunctions like they should be. While there is no guarantee any rifle will safely contain a catastrophic case failure you want the best chance of it surviving or if it won't, controlled failure. Keep in mind if it lets go and there are people around you they could wind up injured as well and I would not want to explain why I was shooting a gun that numerous reputable, published, sources warned is at high risk of failure.

I would throw a M1917 into the mix as well. It was one of my first and still one of the favorites.