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Hypothetically Speaking If you were offered and bought a complete Non Import Marked BM 59 and you were given a choice of which Receiver you would like to have, which one of these 2 would you get the Winchester or Springfield Armory one ? Also if you Might have to get a Barrel where would you look to find and purchase a USGI one on GB or would there be a place that sells them ? Thank You & Happy Easter
SF
Springfield
Can you not keep them both Frank? I don't think one is better...
That would be Nice Jim, but I'm pretty sure the person whoever owns these will only part with one and would like to keep the more rare one. ThanksQuote:
Originally Posted by browningautorifle
SF
I wouldn't be Surprised at all the time its going to take to get a FFL to Transfer these because when the Italians adopted them as there Rifle and converted the name when they applied there marking and you cannot just put M1 Garand since these were brought back. Usually here in Texas and other States its takes 20 minutes, but I know these will take atleast a couple of weeks or more to get it right unless you find a FFL that has done one before and there aren't many here that have...I just hava e hunch.
SF
Ok...then too I would go with the Springfield because I think it's NOT so rare. I think all parts may be marked BMB or some such and not likely to be marked as SA or Win. You'll be able to put a clean example together that way. Yes, I think the Win might be more rare...
Your Corect Jim...All the parts to them are marked I think they include a P just like you mentioned, but since there both marked P. Berretta all parts to both of them would have to be marked accordingly for them to be correct. I guess it's more about if a part is worn and needs to be replaced it will have to be a part marked for a P.Beretta BM 59 or one easily accessible to keep it working and what parts are more easily accessible to use and not as costly. Thanks Jim.Quote:
Originally Posted by browningautorifle
SF
This will be neat to see once finished I think... They use M14 mags don't they? Then off to see the hogs...
Correct Jim...The ones they used after the Italians adopted this as there Military Rifle were converted for 20 Round box Mags, but there still some early BM 59 that accept the 8 round enbloc Clips. I just sure wish I had one of these...They look pretty awesome but always heard there pretty heavy.Quote:
Originally Posted by browningautorifle
SF
They just seem that way...here's the spec for them. Beretta BM 59 - WikipediaQuote:
Originally Posted by imntxs564
Thank You Jim....I heard these came with a Field Manual and a complete Assembled and Disassemble Booklet that Really Helps, but when you know a couple guys who love these and can help you out and make it look simple that would be cool. What you Posted was a Pretty Cool Read...Thanks JimQuote:
Originally Posted by browningautorifle
SF
If you need the wrench to assemble the barrel to receiver when time comes, I have them here. I had to make two, one for the action and one for the barrel...one goes in the vise and the other is wrenched on. Plus the angle meter to get it all right. Let me know, I'd send them down on loan...plus instructions. Feels better doing it yourself.
Thanks Jim...If I ever come across one of these and what to build it up instead of having someone else do it that would be Good to know...Thanks JimQuote:
Originally Posted by browningautorifle
SF
Check with Sarco, they were selling a repo barrel. The shorter one for the Para and Alpina(?).
E/SL kits are available also that have the full length barrel through Sarco.
Also visit Tim Shufflin's "Battle Tested" forum website for more information.
Just remembered Standard LLC website for parts.
Breda would be a preferred receiver. They used their own proprietary magazine. M14 mags do not work.
Not in these receivers? He's not dealing with a Breda receiver. Just these...M14 mags don't work at all?Quote:
Originally Posted by blfuller
Just looked into it more, apparently not...a different mag.
I don't understand thread #5. Can you elaborate a bit. Why would it be a problem with an FFL to do the transfer? I've been an FFL since 1990.
---------- Post added at 11:00 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:59 AM ----------
Almost forgot: I have a couple of nos stocks for them.
About ten years ago the only BM 59 mags I could find were close to the $100 mark
Yuk, that's a lot.Quote:
Originally Posted by TDH
And that's when you could find them
I had a rifle I called the Half breed. It was an M1 converted to M14 configuration using M14 mags and was made by Walter Craig out of Alabama Traded it off to a FAL I never could get running so I sold it
I heard these Originals Mags are VERY hard to get..This one guy I know got 2 for 100.00 and 1 for 75.00 and this guy bought them, but the seller would not part wirh more than 3 and that was only because he bought the original BM 59 Parts kit from him. I know he has several more but not many people are buying them.Quote:
Originally Posted by TDH
Just Curious Brian Do You Collect those Stocks or If someone ever needed one would you sell one ? There's a Big Chance the Stocks might need to be repaired or there used up pretty good, but they might just have the BM 59 cartouche with NO other markings.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian Dick
About having a Hunch about the Problems someone will have getting these Receivers Transfered on the 4473 Form is I THINK there Bring Backs or they might NOT be and when the Italians adopted them and Marked them P. Beretta BM 59 wouldn't that associate them with F/A even though they are Semi-Auto Receivers here and if some FFL person put the wrong name on the Form it could Possibly get rejected until it gets rectified. You should be able to elaborate on it more being a FFL because I would like to know why this has happened before to someone else. Also what's Nice about those Receivers they have the Stripper Guide still on them. I'm not a Garand guy, but the BM 59 ones I seen without that P. Beretta mark didn't have them. Please Correct me because I would Really like to know. It's kinda strange how the laws work because you can bring these back with the correct paper work but in Europe it's the Barrel and Bolt Regulated and here its the Receiver so you have to go like to Sarco or Somewhere else to get them or have a friend who has them and make a deal.
It's been many years since I had a real F/A BM59 in my hands. Nigerian models if memory serves in new condition. I can't remember if the receivers had connectors like the M14 or not. Maybe someone can elaborate? There were semi-auto BM59 rifles sold by Springfield Armory so if the receivers are devoid of the "go fast" parts, I don't see a problem with an FFL transferring them as they would an M1 Rifle or semi auto M1A.
The stocks are for sale. I can take some pictures if interested. Please email me direct at bdlltd@bellsouth.net if you want to pursue it.
Thank You Brian for your Reply...If for some reason I come across one and it cannot be saved or worth it I will contact you. I appreciate your help and offer. Thank YouQuote:
Originally Posted by Brian Dick
Purchase Refurbished Rifle And M1 Garand – Garand Guy sells the completed rifle.
Except they say they're sold out...Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason60chev
The Stock looks okay there's No Major damage, but either I will stay with it or might go ahead and get another one and just save this one, but it won't be original to the Rifle if I do get a replacement, but that should be the best thing to do.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian Dick
Jason, Thanks for the Post...This guy is Pretty Sharp and has some Great info on these Original BM 59's.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason60chev
REAL BM-59s, with VERY few exceptions ALL came as selective fire, hence certain expensive restrictions.
Most I have seen are via Beretta, some Breda.
Beretta made a LOT of parts, generally marked "PB".
Indonesia made a squillion in various models, initially using original M-1 receivers, which could have been made by Beretta, or any of the US makers..
Even when Pindad started making their own BM-59 variants, on Italian-supplied machinery, they started by making M-1 receivers, because that is how their entire plant, bought from the Italians, operated: Make a proper M-1 receiver, then machine away the bits that you didn't need for the BM-59. The "rock-n-roll" feature is very clever and a bit like the bits for the M-2 Carbine.
The mag is exclusive to the design and is a very good piece of kit. It even has a feed ramp "starter" incorporated , not unlike those found in 7.5 x 55 Swiss SiG Stg-57s and the 7.62 NATO, 510 / AMT "export" version.
The Indonesians made several variants, including a heavy-barreled number, analogous to the short-lived US M-15.
Springfield Armory, the "commercial enterprise", not the late Government-owned factory, made up a few batches of mainly semi-auto only BM-59's, using Beretta parts on new-made US-made receivers that, without extensive "re-engineering" would not accept the "go-fast" parts set. Some of these even had the Beretta "para" folding butt assembly fitted.
Well, I had to carry my BM 59 TA up and down mountains and it sure was heavy.
A couple pounds more than the Garand we used at the earliest stage of the Officer School.
But it was/is a fabulous weapon. I'm looking for one myself here now. But they "civilized" them ruining the flash hider and eliminating the grenade launcher forward sight, plus welding the foldable stock.
But the path of a stubborn Alpino is always open, so I now know where to find all original parts.........
Hopefully, in a few weeks I'll be able to show a new, damn expensive, new baby.
Looking forward to seeing that one... Strange though, they appear to actually be only a couple ounces heavier than the M1... Beretta BM 59 - WikipediaQuote:
Originally Posted by Ovidio
Hello BAR, I'm picking at numbers I have in my memory, but the Garand was somewhere around 4.5 kg, while the BM 59 I remember at 5.625 with full mag, sling etc.
Might be a problem of memory and of the much more difficult mountains we had to go up further on during the course, but the FAL (as we called it, from Fucile Automatico Leggero) was all but "leggero" (light).
We loved it anyway, and although it is very expensive now, I'm looking for a very good one in pristine conditions, from the Carabinieri reserves. Then I'll buy the TA stock and the original compensator to make it as it has to be again.
I just have to find one that is really as new. Too many people are trying to make money selling junk.
It's not. It's just perception. I remember handing a man a metric FN and he immediately said "Wow, they're way heavier than ours!"... but they aren't. Another flinched when I handed him a Thompson SMG saying the same thing. It weighed just about a pound more. The BM59s that we saw around here were shorter looking by appearance and that makes one think, "That's a heavy little bast*rd!"... I found them robust and solid.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ovidio
Anyway as you pointed out, they were superb and apparently you were ready to trust your well being to one in a fight...which is what's important.
I would definitely have trusted her and my MG 42/59.
Loved the toy!!!
A few years ago, I picked up several interesting documents, (original and "copies"), covering the BM-59
One is a damaged, but readable, copy of something called: "Sinossi di Armi ed Appunto di Tiro", which has a small section on the BM-59.
The other one is a digitized version of a document produced by Beretta, circa 1966. This is essentially a "technical sales brochure" and has text in Italian, English, French and German and covers several variants, and includes excellent photographs, drawings and data tables.
It may even be available via the "library' associated with "milsurps" web-pages.
Wow, Sinossi!
That's really an oooooold word we all met and heard for the first time at the Military School.
That one might well have been one of the texts we studied then.
Unfortunately I didn't keep much from my time at the SMALP (Scuola Militare Alpina).
I sure do regret it now.
The Beretta document on my hard-drive is quite large; 8.4Mb / 57 pages.
Moderators: Is that too big to upload?
Does "Sinossi" mean something like "synopsis", or the French term, "precis"? My Italian is limited to words related to food and cooking or, of course, music.
Contact Badger as I do not know.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruce_in_Oz
Hi Bruce, yes, it means synopsis.
I'd love to look at it.
I built a BM59 clone a couple of years ago before the current receivers were available. I bought one from the Garandguy, but it still needed a little modification, would work as received but I wanted it closer to the original.
Parts came from ebay and Italy, and barrel came from Standardparts llc. Modified an original birch M1 Garand stock to fit. It was not an easy build, and I finally got it running decently a couple months ago.
Here a a few pics of my build:
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo.../bmparts-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...bmpartsa-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...bmpartsb-1.jpg
Above are the parts source from the US and Italy. I started this a couple years before the current kits were available.
Below is the receiver. The legs were not profiled correctly, I ended up trimming them down with a drimmel tool.
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...receiver-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...receiver-1.jpg
Finally ended up with this. Not an easy build.
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...DSCF5607-1.jpg
I currently have another parts kit, sarco barrel and JRA receiver waiting to be assembled.
Nice job. Also the stock with that "camo" effect. Makes it really a beauty!
The Beretta made M1 rifles used the 8 round enbloc clips. ALL BM59 rifles were modified to accept 20 round BM59 magazines....NOT M14 Magazines. There is a huge difference and quality in the magazines.Quote:
Originally Posted by imntxs564
Am currently having one of these assembled by Tim Shufflin of Shuff's Parkerizing.
http://i65.tinypic.com/65sc54.jpg
You'll have to swing by with it when you're done...
I have been working in Afghanistan for the past 16 months. There is an outside possibility of me returning home for some vacation time this year, but I seriously doubt that I will. Maybe next year? I don;t know. I need my passport renewed, which my employer is working on. We have to pay for our air travel for vacation time....which I am too cheap to pay for because I do not see the value to cost benefit for just three weeks at home. I also hate making the 7500 mile trip back and forth. Not to mention the disruption in pay because we lose the hazard pay when we leave the theatre. When the rifle is completed, it will ship to my 01-FFL dealer in Florida and remain there until whenever it is I do get home. Will try to get my dealer to take some pics of it.
We'll be here when you return. Take care over there.