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New straight pull Enfield SAS short rifle. I shall let the description and pictures talk for themselves ...
So Enfield made Lithgow cut receiver equipped L1A1's for the SAS did they .... :banghead::banghead:
Enfield L1A1 Straight Pull 7.62 mm Rifles- GunStar
O, bless 'em! But they do try. As if anyone in the real army world would use a straight pull. Doesn't anyone tell these retailers that we're taking the pxxx out of them?
I would imagine that they have used that flash eliminator to fit under the gas block and therefore cover all traces of the gas port. Just a guess of course.......
The straight pull L1A1'S aren't exactly tack drivers as they stand, they were designed to fill a gap in collections left open after the semi autos were banned.
So, lop off 5" of barrel and what do we have, yep further reduced accuracy and £500 more!
Tell me, Peter, Mike, Geoff, Andy .... Having an interest in all things inch pattern, I re-created a deac example of an ANZAC "special" L1 a while back, I waited until I had an original one to exactly copy, but does this SP re-creation have any basis in reality, as I have never seen any evidence whatsoever of a British cut down Spec ops L1A1??
To be honest, I served in Australia, NZ and the UK and I'm the first to admit it, never with these sneaky-beaky people. Or if I did, not that I know of. Plus the fact that if I did, I wouldn't say so! But I digress..... I have never seen an L1A1 shortened as an army issue thing in the UK, Oz or NZ although the NZ people were very close to us at Papakura and we were their Field/Base workshop. I have seen one (or two?) shortened for a training/trial/scientific student examples to show how accuracy degrades at a logarithmic rate almost at the same rate as the flash enlarges almost! And of course, its inability to operate the gas system as I mentioned in a paper a year or so ago here. I'm not saying anything that I haven't said before but how that second pistol grip ever holds onto or even remains firmly attached to a set of flimsy handguards while the rifle is rocking and rolling and bucking like a bronco with a bee stinging its axxe, while on auto is totally beyond me. But nope, I never saw a shortie outside a test lab. When I asked WO2 Ian Kxxxxx at DSE Axxxxx for one (for the collection) he said that they'd never heard of them.
Seen plenty tarted up with green paint and assorted camo style 'look-at-me-mum' tape. Same tape used on cars also known as 'go-faster tape'.
It is interesting how they profess to them having been at the Falklands fight, yet during all the footage and after pics there were none to be seen. They act like they're standard fare. And they're an awful lot of $$$$
Funny that Jim, as you say, with the exception of the Australian/New Zealand SAS Vietnam specials, (plenty of period pictures online), I have never seen or heard of any British special rifles....Only the often told tall stories!Quote:
Originally Posted by browningautorifle
John,
No one had them down south, and to my knowledge, I have never seen one issued to anyone regardless of Regiment status, it was always "as issued" and use dependable proven British kit, that you could always rely on, or use U.S kit for a variance such as Jungle warfare ie M16 and other special duties, and sometimes they too were used in NI, but rarely, because to take away a proven SLR from any squaddie, was like ripping off his right arm.
If you asked me, if my issue SLR failed me, would I cast it aside and pick up an AK47?...............I would fix bayonets, rather then get rid of my trusty bondook the SLR.
Everything seems to have to be sold these days, with an "ex SAS/PARA/RM" tag on it to make it somehow acceptable and more appealing, or is it me??
John, I think you started the thread right with SAS L1A1 (not really) was spot on mate.
I am still sat here thinking, what the hell would you want that for in any contact:ugh:
Cheers Gil, thanks for the feedback mate, it's total rubbish isn't it, I think Luxembourg Defence Technic started this nonsense a few years back with their fun "SAS builds", basically same as this rifle (but semi auto) with the FE attached straight in front of the gas block.
From there, Chinese Whispers took firm hold and the bullsh*t bus hit the road hard!
As you say Gil, mention the Falklands, SAS, Para and watch the till ring !!
I do wish buyers would get clued up before they swallow this rubbish.
As many wise Voices on here say again and again (all together now) ... Buy the rifle, not the story!
Is it possible to tell from the 3 pictures provided in the link that it is definitely a British spec L1A1 SLR and not an Australian or Canadian version?
I remember the long, long thread we had here reference that...Quote:
Originally Posted by mrclark303
I think if were Canadian they would be happy to jump on a cash bandwagon and try to sell it for big bucks that way. They're scarce...Quote:
Originally Posted by Flying10uk
Receiver is Lithgow cut F10, just another nail in its coffin...Quote:
Originally Posted by Flying10uk
---------- Post added at 01:02 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:58 AM ----------
Never seen anything C1 here Jim, except for the Warminster example.Quote:
Originally Posted by browningautorifle
If someone could make one up here it would be a real one off!
Couple of pics from a book I have on the SASR with modded SLR's in VN, the author Mick Malone OAM was a member of the SASR and toured VN with the Regiment during that conflict I say this as sometimes info is gathered by the 3rd person and can be erroneous in content this is by one who was there, he now sells WW history books.
Thanks for posting Cinders, plenty of accounts and pictorial evidence for the ANZAC modified L1's, absolutely none for a Northern hemisphere example.
Original NI photo of a shorty L1A1 courtesy of Adobe PS9
Attachment 83053
In my experience (having made many 'shorties') the accuracy is noticeably improved as the barrel is shortened. A good condition L1A1 is usually capable of consistent 2 - 3" groups at 100 yards with good ammo, but shortening (as much as only 1.5" ahead of the gas port) can bring the groups down to 1". Of course this comes at the expense of some velocity, and the gas port has to be enlarged to operate with the lower port pressure. The end result is a handy little unit!
No need to go through it all again, but we found barrel length most critical for accuracy using 7.62mm NATO, issued ammo. It was for this very reason that the L4 barrel had to have a longer barrel than the old Mk3 gun barrel it replaced! Check it out next time you see them together. They WANTED to keep the 762 barrel shorter for technical manufacturing purposes but the accuracy figures fell away.
Never seen that photo before but it needs further info from somewhere. But VERY early....., still in the old original sateen combats. Probably 1969 I'd say. With all the thousands of photos taken during the time, others with short rifles that noone has ever seen would have emerged.
I can't say that I've ever remember seeing a photo before of a British soldier in Northern Ireland with bayonets attached. Do you know what the policy was, Peter, on bayonets in Northern Ireland, please? Perhaps the policy was changed for political reasons in more recent years?
I see the FE is attached to the gas plug, very funny, what have you done, the dealers will be using this as proof Ha!Quote:
Originally Posted by Brit plumber
Caption should read, Private Adobe of the Queens 1st Foot and Mouth tests the "Special Army Soldier" short rifle, as he stands guard after a Glaswegian Stag night...
That pic has been altered and it's easy to see. Just look closely...Quote:
Originally Posted by Brit plumber
The REAL reason these were shortened to this length. Was to ensure the user was able to extract pickled onions easily. Out of the glass jar!........:rofl:
Finally, a respected Armourer breaks cover and gives the official reason for these short rifles, cheers Mike!
I hear you were involved with the early classified Humber pig / Sarsons pickled onion trials, hope I haven't got you into bother with the Official secrets act!
I never knew April the 1st carried on so long after the date:)
Bayonets were fixed early on, in 1969-70 but not in my time. The powers that be had the practice stopped so far as I know and recall, they weren't even carried. Over to you Gil and tankie for that answer?
Oh, yes...... I see now. But not being a computer teccie I didn't get the clue in the name. Like I said, we didn't have them here except at Shrivenham/Cranfield. As for the increased accuracy when shortened, I accept that our accuracy tests were more scientific in test ranges and laboratories rather than field tests and then only using NATO RG ball ammo.
As a matter of interest and as a bit of an aside to the subject, even the weight differences between the original flash eliminator (the f/e) and the proposed strengthened designs made a difference to the accuracy patterns formed with the control sample rifles. The weight of a redesign had to be very similar to be acceptable otherwise a revamped rearsight had to be considered as part of the package so that........ anyway....... Anyone care to tell us the weights of a bare 5 and 3 fluted f/e?
Never ever used or were issued bayonets for NI. They may have been to other units in the very very early days, but certainly not our Regiment. Maybe in the days when live rounds were issued out sparingly, and it was more of an aggressive stance to have a bayonet fitted, but by his hand position on the trigger guard, says to me, he "ain't carrying anything in his mag he means to use"
The other key thing noticeable in that photoshop photo, is that we always had the front part of the sling removed from the rifle, and made into a loop and anchored around our wrists. A trend we started, which caught on fairly quickly, as soldiers were dragged away by screaming women and crowds, and their weapon ended up on the wrong side, quite OFTEN ;)
Good old image as it was originally, and the second one showing the strap around the wrist. One must not forget both sides gave us tea and cakes for the couple of years before it all kicked off, they were really pleased to see us..........then nowt for the next 35 years
Thanks for sharing the great pics Gil, it wasn't all bad news though, Embassy Gold could be had for 3'10:)
Joking aside, the Northern Ireland assembly might be a royal pain in the arse, but at least its a Northern Ireland pain in the arse and they are sorting out their own problems these days...
Don't take a glass jar into the Humber pig...Quote:
Originally Posted by mrclark303
Looks like he's carrying a rifle that's much too cumbersome for him, resting on the basic pouch and nothing behind his eyes...Quote:
Originally Posted by Gil Boyd
They also found that as they'd surround a bloke, shout and spit etc etc, one of them would quickly try to slice the sling with a seat-belt cutter thing. But cutting a nylon seat belt was easier that cutting a cotton weave sling. Remind me Gil......., after my time....... but did you use the clip-on plastic coated wire hawsers on L1A1's? They were used on SMG's, taken from the Arctic Warfare Mod packs because the seat belt cutters could slice those slings easily. They were quite short and it meant that the SMG couldn't be rotated through 180 degrees and fired back at you.
He's got a tie on his shirt too BAR. They'd have that throttling him within seconds. I think that photo was VERY early....., late '69 I'd say.
That must have been wonderful, having some of those old RSMs that insisted on a necktie in operations. Glad I missed it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Laidler
Peter,
That made me spit out my afternoon tea with a chuckle. I don't think the lad has been much of anywhere, where he might encounter an angry man.
Never seen anybody with a number two shirt and tie on except RMP in those early days, before they were given Red berets instead of smart parade dress cap............The lad has to be BFBS or an Army film unit, he looks so out of it.
It does look staged.
All we had were the slings, whether SLR or SMG, that was our Regimental SOP's anyway right through the seventies I believe, certainly till the SA80 came in.
No GPMG allowed in any city limits either...........only on the border or out in the fields.
We had two tours at Bessbrook before the Mill was converted and then one after when it became to busiest Heliport in Europe, and not once did I ever see any variation used by "special units" other than what was issued, with as I said earlier the Armalite.
It did cause some anx, because the last thing you wanted to be using was a non 7.62 rifle or weapon and run out of ammo in the countryside. That would have caused too much cross fertilisation of ammo needed to be carried by all insundry.
The chopper pad we built at the school at the other end of the village was where the Scouts/Sioux were operated from, and it was considered in those days not the done thing to have weapons mounted in the doors of the Scouts, so it was a strop across open gaps, no doors and stand on the skids, with your chest on the strop. Couldn't find a decent photo of the two together but this was in the Radfan.
Here are three from that tour in NI I just laid my hands on one of the Trilux trials. This is why the sling loops came into their own if you were unlucky to drop your rifle from the helicopter, you always had it attached to your wrist!!!!
The Scouts certainly earned their keep in NI didn't they.... Mind you, I think as general work horses they were totally flogged to death by the time they were pensioned off. Like the single and twin pioneer 'taxis' in Malaya. I remember exactly where I was when NI all kicked off. I was in Oz, sat on my bed on a Sunday afternoon, writing a letter home when one of the diggers walked up the outside corridor, came in and told me that the paddies had started rioting in NI. I remember saying to him that it was probably IRA inspired/fomented and it'd all be over by Xmas............ Never been more wrong!
Maybe......, just maybe, someone will write the whole warts an' all story of the whole saga. Miami showband, central laundry, Welch Guards int breakthrough......... Nope, maybe not. Just best left unsaid
Gil, do you remember a GPMG getting snatched in Northern Ireland which, if memory serves me correctly, I seem to remember seeing on news reports from the late 1980s period? I seem to remember from what was said on the news that it caused a "hell of stink" at the time but that the army recovered it fairly quickly.
Long time since I saw a Bell Sioux. Last one was way out in the bush, I was lead scout for the rifle company...step through the bushes into a clearing and here's this chopper and two man crew. A Lance Sgt and Lance Cpl. flying it. They conflabbed with the OC and then it cranked up and rattled off into the distance...not sure how long until I saw the Gazelles.
No probs John, The real Official secret was. The trials were abandoned, due to the Pigs ignoring the Onions. & Much preferring truffles!........;)Quote:
Originally Posted by mrclark303
---------- Post added at 12:48 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:41 AM ----------
Pete, TBH. I cant say for certain why the bayonets were not utilised. I can only assume that they were stolen off the Rifles in a Crowd control situation. Where it was potentially easy for a member of the public. To grasp the bayonet area round the handle area & flash Hider, & press the catch.
But I 'suspect' that the real reason was. They were deemed 'Too Aggressive' when carried fixed. & thought it might upset those poor little rioting paddies?....:rolleyes:
Gil: Yes in the very early deployment years, of British Troops in NI. Tea & Sarnies were welcomed by the Lads. But........when later, ground glass & other 'Nasty Stuff' was included in them. but as You Know, The Practice was stopped by Orders issued from above!.......:ugh:
So many weapons stolen over the years to remember which Regiment lost what:eek: oops sorry Lost/Stolen correctionQuote:
Originally Posted by Flying10uk
I can remember a very brief camera sweep of an IRA arms cache being decommissioned on the news, a wood stocked L1A1 was among the AK's, Armalites and M60's etc
The only "funny" I ever saw, (and fired) was an L2A1, that had been around the block with someone and came back with a flash-hider from an M-60 attached to a slightly shortened barrel.
It had modified late-pattern L1A1 hand-guards held on with stainless-steel hose clamps, instead of the C2 type bipod / hand-guard rig. L2A1 dust-cover and sight retained. L1A1 trigger housing and components.
Looked nasty, shot fine.
Do not know of its "heritage", but doubt it was an "official" mod, even for the "interesting chaps" from Western Australia.
There was also alleged to be an L1A1 issued to a rather "gung-ho" Oz Infantry company commander (Major), which was bog-standard, but had a set of hand-guards with brass plates attached to them. On these plates were engraved the words: "Happiness is a warm barrel and a high body count." I suspect there may have been a set of "issue" hand-guards available, come "tech inspection" time.
I do not think the paddies had it all their own way in a book I have Stalk and Kill a certain IRA member was fleeing the scene of a shoot out with the British army at night and found his way into the cross hairs of a sniper whom latched on to him as he disappeared into a door way. The sniper fired as the perp disappeard into the shadows so could not claim a kill.
During daylight a patrol went out and went to the doorway where there was a nice 7.62 hole in the center of it, they had to push their way in as on the otherside dead as a trout was the IRA member with a nice old exit hole in the middle of his chest.
The sniper could only fathom what must have happened and it went like this, as he got into the door and closed it behind him he had leant against the door thinking Phew! he had escaped when the round came through the door and did the deed on him.
But they had IRA snipers that were just as good as the Brits that are mentioned in the book but it was a one way street as they could not match the training of the British snipers and often ended up holding onto the short end of the rod.
Heres one to show snipers are not with out feeling from the same book;
The were set up in an urban training environment with poppers goodies and baddies to which the snipers had x time to take out the threats anyway one sniper shot a lady pushing a pram so the CGI shouted out "Thats just great for the relations here the child will grow up hating us and wanting to kill us."
No sooner had those words left his mouth another shot rang out going straight through the pram...................total silence ensued!
Sorry for the highjack but the mention of paddies & Ireland brought those stories back into my head.......:thup:
The snatch GPMG saga was the late 80's and was taken from one of the Jockistan regiments during a village sweep in bandit country. Some women ran off with it plus he belt hanging from it but the stumbling block was that the engagement rules did not allow the patrol to open fire on the women due to the fact that simply running off with a gun isn't a killing offence. So they had to let them escape. But not for long. One of them had already surrounded and sliced the face of one of the others too. Reinforcements were quickly on scene and the village TOTALLY locked down and sealed. A couple of Para Reg search teams came in - I think that they called then chaos squads - very quick plus dogs and after a while it was found. Much more to it than that but there you go...... Gil, you'll remember this albeit by association with our mutual friend
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruce_in_Oz
Ring any bells Bruce?
In view of the current situation in the words of Churchill "Careless Talk Costs Wives" :lol:
but I remember it well, he was that man..............in a small town then, called Crossmaglen.
No Sheriff, no guns hung up at the edge of town, and lots of Indians, with bows and arrows..............but then there was 2 PARA to keep the PEACE, same ole same ole, we did more tours than Thomas Cook Holidays:lol::surrender:
Re Bruce in Oz, thread 37 and the handguards...... The Maoris with 1 RNZIR were notorious (but very good) at carving the handguards and butts of their rifles. Nobody seemed to try to stop them, as if it were the normal done-thing!. I took a set off one being back loaded that was beautifully carved with a Kiwi bird holding a spear on a surf board. Still have them somewhere. Another I noted was carved with the words 'death and torture to all VC'. Nice blokes but don't get into a drinking contest with them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Laidler
Interesting to see a pic if you come across those Peter!
.................oh no not Peter's renowned drinking habits surely??? He's got cups and awards for it:madsmile:
That looks VERY similar. I can't recall exactly how the front of the hand-guards were modified to clear the "fatter" gas-block. Is that "industrial" / "gaffa" tape on those hand-guards
The one in your pic appears to have retained its L2A1 selector / "fun-switch".
I don't think I have any photos of beast I saw. And it was over twenty-five years ago..........
Hi Bruce, the picture was sent to me by one of our Milsurps brothers, it's an interesting example, can't really fathom why they would use an L2 as the base rifle, it needs a lot more work.
On the other hand, it has a heavier barrel for sustained fire (as much as a magazine fed weapon can) and I suppose it was just avalable at the time for conversion.
Looking at the logic behind these mods though, sustained fire wasn't the object, it was make an almighty bloody racket, a very brief beaten arc of fire, throw smoke and disengage while the NVA/VC patrol have their faces pressed in the mud wondering what just hit them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gil Boyd
Now being a true Brit, I take a certain pride in not being out drank by our Commonwealth brothers .... I had more than a few beers with a Maori once and I ended up bowing out at 4am, I conceded the match to him while I still had a working liver!
I was a lot younger then and wouldn't even entertain it now!
Think were all like that now John, one of my best sessions was in Japan.....in the early 90's, I nipped out (no pun intended there) the hotel and found a bar close by (Merchant Seamen have never had a problem finding a bar, its finding the correct one that counts) it was a small, quiet and not the Slaughtered Lamb type, so sat down at the bar and quaffed on the local ale, there was a Guy who come in just after me, but dressed like an old fashioned British Banker, ... the Bowler hat, black suit with brolly etc...... he mentioned something in Japanese, my pigeon Japanese was bad at the time, so I raised my glass and we were off........Quote:
Originally Posted by mrclark303
To this day I will never Know what he was celebrating, commiserating etc, but he was knocking down the Sake like there was no tomorrow, maybe he was caught with the Secretary or the cleaner in the cupboard...... who knows, but he was going for it, lucky for me the Hotel wasn't far, but I didn't envy his Journey........ as Billy Connolly describes there is about 3 drunken staggers, his was dressage......
I had an afternoon flight the next day so enough time to stem the hangover, of course back then travel was civilised and you could enjoy a bear and light up as soon as the no smoking light went out.......
I don't even want to recall those days let alone relive one. I remember the hangovers and sometimes travel was intolerable. Specially if you were near a diesel engine that was smoking. It was always fun at the time.Quote:
Originally Posted by bigduke6
Seeing as it's almost ANZAC Day.....
Bruce, Well! That REALLY takes the Antipodean Biscuit!.......:D
A VERY Happy ANZAC Day my Friend! :cheers:
We had a church service on Anzac day as I remember and the rest of the day off. In NZ we closed the workshop and all went sea fishing. I caught a fish called a 'snapper' (beginners luck I hasten to add....) as did a few of the others and eat them at a hoolie (?) at the weekend. More drinking with Bob Moitera and his maouri drinking pals.......
Ooops...., meant to say Hungi instead of hooli. Mind you, by 10 o'clock, it could have been anything
A very happy ANZAC day from me and my NZ SMLE to our Antipodean brothers (its already the 25th in NZ):cheers::cheers::cheers::thup:
Have a good one............couldn't have done without you all ;)
We also had a RNZEME Corps Day and went to visit the old CAC ammo factory (someone remind me where it was.....) who were producing 7.62 for us. My boss WO2 Annandale arranged with the factory boss/management that we could reciprocate with a range day. Fired the usual Brens Stens SLR's and the Vickers followed by a barbie later on the grass at the rear of the workshop when the families could enjoy the festivities. Unfortunately my Mum and Dad couldn't make it
Peter, the CAC factory was in Mt Eden, Auckland. They lost the 7.62mm contract in 1966 due to poor quality control caused by retooling the old .303 machines rather than opting for the new Manhurin machines that the Government offered them (bloody accountants!). Jock Annadale was a good bugger!
Think you meant a Hangi Peter my outlaws are NZD'ers and over the years we have had a fair few takes a while and allot of beers to do correctly as different meats cook at different rates but once stacked and sealed the wait is well worth it and the great thing about them is you need a cactus load of people around for the feast............yummo! Mind you the next morning is not the best :cheers::cheers::cheers:
Was it always the front end of the sling, or was the back end sometimes used as well? I ask because I have filed away on my computer an obvious publicity photo of some Para troops with a Saracen on a street in NI, and the lead fellow has the *rear* end of the sling detached and looped around his wrist. Was this a common variation, or was one quickly replaced by the other in the field?Quote:
Originally Posted by Gil Boyd
Preference to the user.............but that would present lots of problems to him doing it that way round. It would allow someone intent on separating it from its user, to take it further from his body in that configuration for example, and give them more "dragability" and/or allow the barrel to be turned on him more easily IMHO;)
Just out of interest, was the Saracen displaying a red cross, as we didn't have any saracens only open Land Rovers no doors or Humber Pigs on lone when we needed them? Reason for asking is it may have been a medic not a PARA!
Gil, wasn't an RCT bloke shot with his own rifle that was tethered to his wrist. It was pulled from him to be dragged away and he (or the bloke next to him.....) was shot. MUST have been tethered to the front sling as it's impossible (?) from the rear sling point. Like all things NI, much more to it than that
Peter,
As answered above, I can't see any reason why you would do it differently than taking the front sling off. Yes remember several other Regiments in riot situations being shot.
I was trying to find the video of a Scots Regiment where the lad was being dragged out of the back of a Pig by the rifle in a riot, and the reason why not to make a loop from the rear part of the sling. Fim is better than words, if I locate it I'll put it up.
The woman was trying to cock the rifle as she and others pulled him, so thank God he followed SOP's on that day!!
First image again shows it in use and second one from a film is your worst scenario
Made me chuckle Gil. In real life, it's your worst nightmare come true....... although in real life, when they caught up with the little bas......., er..... rascal, the bloke who caught him would probably have tripped on his boot laces, fallen down on him totally accidentally of course, landing heavily on him with his knees and......... Anyway, that's what I'd have said. (Dave Chesh knew all the answers)
Salt of the earth both Chesh and Benny...........a different breed of soldier, different times. Brave men:thup:
Just take a moment to look in detail at that first photo. The expressions on the peoples faces, their ages now and the kids...............wonder what impact that photo had on their futures??
Grrrrrrrr those second hand American ex VN flak jackets the UK Government bought lock stock and barrel
You only got half of them. We got the other half. Then we kept them until Yugo in the early '90's. We even had some of the XX sizes that had rope around the armholes, ex Korean war issue...Quote:
Originally Posted by Gil Boyd
Thanks for your explanation; that does make sense.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gil Boyd
The photo doesn't seem to want to post, so I'm attaching the URL to its Photobucket file. I don't remember where I got it (who knows, maybe a past thread here?); whatever's wrong about the information, I'll gladly correct it!
Para troops with L1A1s and Saracen No Ireland_zpseglem6ig.jpg Photo by enbloc8 | Photobucket
Gil said, 'Grrrrrrrr those second hand American ex VN flak jackets ...'
The Yanks in Vietnam didn't have much love for them either.
EnblocB,
That is a staged photo with Lt Dave Brough 1 PARA. Young one pipper officer, with no belt order, was an no no as SOP's in NI, thats the first issue, second one, clearly it was the very early days when we had cups of tea from both sides, and the sling issues only manifested themselves when rioting occurred in later years, also no flak jacket.ummmmmmmmmmmm
Browningautorifle,
The problem was they had not, in some cases had the blood washed off them, or the inked ace of spades and sweethearts names taken off them, so you knew they hadn't been in stores at Donnington for long.
First thing we did was to cut open the neck seams and stuff the collar down inside it. We then as a Regiment wore our PARA smocks over the top of them......most of us didn't need padding out, but it made "Everyman an Emperor" built like the preverbial s***house :lol:
It was a quick reaction hole, for a situation the UK Government found themselves having to fill urgently. One good thing about them was, in open Landrovers on freezing mornings
Post script: Photo taken on the 15th August 1969..........well before any problems for the Army, and no flak jackets were issued until 70-71 to my knowledge. Queens Regiment with him.
Good thread but it makes a tour of NI sound like a bit of a wheeze. Nothing could be further from the truth especially by 72/3 or so onwards. But, like they say, you only remember the good times.
Didn't have many of them where we were :)
That made me laugh Gil........
Sadly, 1971 to 1974 were probably the worst years for everyone living or serving in the Province, and in many cases, mainland England as well, as they must be included with many bombs causing so much carnage, as internment was brought in.
Moving and often very sad times.................and for what? Another story for someone else to tell, in their best Political speak.:(
As you say Gil ... and for what ... All we can all do is hold the Northern Ireland Assembly to account and hope they can hold their respective egos in check and push forward for everyone, carrying the Provence peacefully into the future...
It's the only option at the end of the day.
anyway, back to the thread...................L1A1 best rifle ever made in whatever form it took IMHO:thup:
Not really a rifle I have much interest in to be honest Gil:lol:Quote:
Originally Posted by Gil Boyd
Attachment 83381
Wish digital cameras had been available about 30 squares back so I could have had pics of the variants available when we had then too...markings and such, machine cuts...
Mon Dieu.....sacrilege................plastic carrying handle on a wood L1A1 on the right, mix and match, never:lol:
Don't panic, all is right with the world Gil, the Lithgow L1A1 on the right is an NZ contract example and the carry handle is NZ pattern ... I know, Anorak or what!:madsmile::lol:
In the late 70s the first FN surplus rifles that I recall hit the market, Lithgow L1A1s. They were pretty beat up. I remember one had the barrel shortened to about 18" and the standard flash hider fitted. Wonder if it could have been an early version of the Papua New Guinea model.
These were not the Singapore lot.
So far as I recall Gil, the only written bar regarding the mixing of wood and plastic was that of handguards. Both plastic or both wood and definitely NO mix! I stand to be corrected by Skippy and Tankie of course as I can't seem to find my L1A1 Misc Instructions that detailed it. But nylon carrying handles were the first 'plastic' bit to come on stream followed by the HG's and pistol grip. The butts came later after a bit of a hiccup as the original filler material would expand(?*) and pop the joint between the two plastic halves of the black skin. Made by a plastics firm in Manchester sub contracted oiut by Helix. Mix and match was not aesthetic but for the first few years it was just a necessity. The butt was an easy fix but had to be trialed again. KG did you have microfische re this saga?
*something in my head tells me that the problem was water ingress between the filler material, a sort of cream colour stuff and the outer skin. Marines first had problems. When cold, it popped the black casing.
Pete, I never encountered any mix of wood & plastic together, on any L1A1's I inspected or worked on in Service. Even doing inspections on War Reserve stocks, did not reveal any either!
I would only imagine, if in an 'up the sharp end' situation. if a lack of spares forced the change of particular component. Then it would be fitted to keep the weapon in Action. (if Safe!)
& when spares became sufficient, the weapon in question called in to the Armourer. For replacement of the correct component/ part. :cool:
When I bought 1,000 L1A1's off the NZ Army in 1988 (changeover to Steyr AUG), plastic/wood mixing was common. NZ Army removed most of the carry handles years before (a soldier carrying his rifle by the handle was no use to anyone) and filled the slot with a rubber washer, but the few that had carry handles were a mixture of wood and plastic. The Maranyl plastic furniture was made in NZ for a few years. I will see if I can dig out some old photos of the shipment. I stripped, checked, and rebuilt every rifle with the correct matching of furniture. Only about 10 rifles were U/S out of the thousand (mostly damaged barrels) and these were rebarrelled in either .308 or .243 and refurbished as target or hunting rifles. I also did a couple in 7mm/08 in later years.
I wonder how they would work in 22-250?Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodsy
I'm curious, are there any "official" numbers on how many of NZ's L1A1s stayed in NZ, as opposed to being exported to the US or elsewhere?Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodsy
NZ had 15,663 L1A1's and 375 L2A1's. 2,500 L1A1's were put up for public tender in 1988 (where my 1,000 came from), and the Police subsequently objected to the influx of semi-auto rifles at low prices so all future internal sales by NZ Defence ceased. All subsequent disposals were overseas. A few of each were retained by the NZ Army Museum and some L2A1's, L4 Brens, and M16A1's have been sold by the Musuem to collectors at auction. Therefore the number of NZ L1A1's sold internally was 2,500, plus there have also been private and dealer imports from overseas of British and Australian L1A1's, probably not exceeding 200. The number of NZ L2A1's sold by the museum would be about 10, but a reasonable number of Singaporean contract guns were imported by a dealer about 15 years ago (20-30?).Quote:
Originally Posted by enbloc8
---------- Post added at 09:42 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:36 PM ----------
I had thought about that but they did not work at all well in the magazines so I flagged the idea as being more work than it was worth. One day, just for fun, I built one into a select-fire, fully suppressed .45 ACP using M3 magazines. It was straight blow-back and I ground off the locking shoulder on the bolt and welded it into the carrier in the full battery position. It was only as a workshop toy and it worked (and apparently still does) extremely well. I sold it a few years ago to a mate.Quote:
Originally Posted by browningautorifle
That would be interesting to get my nose over and check out...curiosity... It fired from the closed bolt and the lack of lock allowed it to function? The strength of the return spring(s) were enough to hold it together... The rest of the function follows. I always wondered why Colt didn't just use it's original rotating bolt and hot gas system to operate the 9mm and .45 cal versions. But that's not what we're doing here...Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodsy
Attachment 83488
This is not the clearest photo but it appears to be the only one I have of the .45 conversion (I did it about 1990). The weight of the welded bolt assembly was a smidge on the light side so the cyclic rate was quite high (in the 1000-1200 rpm range) but it never missed a beat. I made a filler block for the rear of the mag well, and an AR15 style mag catch. The filler block also had a vertical ejector post. Apart from the new 10" barrel, welded bolt, L2A1 selector, and mag assembly, everything else was standard L1A1. When I sold it I fitted a scope base to the dust cover. I used to demonstrate it to customers in the lawn outside my business (out of sight of the road!). None of the surrounding businesses ever heard a thing, including the toolmaker in the front premises (20 metres away) who worked with his big workshop door open.
Very interesting concept rifle Woodsy, facinating idea,I was wondering about the cyclic rate.
Got to ask, when you first test fired it, did you pull the trigger or was it fired remotely?
Do you know were it is these days?
With the exception of the .22 conversion kits, it must be the only blow back L1A1 hybrid out there.
PS Nice Krag in The corner!
I hand fired it, first with one round in the mag, then with 3 on semi-auto, then a burst with 3 rounds in the mag. All good to go after that! Yes, I know where it is as I sold it to a mate. I saw him a month ago and he was still all smiles about it.Quote:
Originally Posted by mrclark303
I had 2 .30/40 Krags, an 1899 rifle and a 1900 carbine. I found the carbine in NZ and bought the rifle from a gun shop in Surfers Paradise, QLD. It took 18 months to get it
back to NZ. I sold them both about 5 years ago.
I didn't find any gun shops there when I was there, but that was long ago. The can would get hot during a shoot I should think, I'd be going through lots for sure with it. Looks about like an M3A1 I did some years back. That thing got unbelievably hot. Neat concept gun...Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodsy
If it is a British Build I don't see how it can be legal as all British held L1A1 rifles became "Section 5" after the Hungerford tragedy banning all semi auto rifles above .22.Quote:
Originally Posted by Flying10uk
In the UK you are not allowed to convert a "Section 5" semi auto gun to "Section 1" straight pull nor may you use any pressure bearing parts that were once on a "Section 5" rifle to create a straight pull rifle.
Section 5 is a UK classification and therefore only applies to rifles in the UK, this means parts from rifles outside the UK in theory can be used to create a straight pull but this interpretation is a very grey area.
I have two straight pull L1A1 rifles both built on Australian actions with Italian barrels which appear to be ok with the powers that be as they have passed through the proof house without any problems.
This what is and what isn't Sec5 is interesting isn't it. I also have two, one Enfield and Lithgow (NZ contact).Quote:
Originally Posted by Buccaneer
I would imagine both yours are Malay contract examples Buccaneer, all the examples I have seen from that source have been ex Malay.
The thing is, both my parts kits were sourced in the UK, I procured the Lithgow kit myself from a well known UK dealer and had it built into a straight pull L1A1.
So both kits procured, built as Sec1, proofed and placed on my FAC here in the UK, without any issues whatever.
My local Police force were consulted right off the bat and they had no issues.
It was just a case of being sensible regarding the builds and ensuring a new barrel was used without bleed, plus suitable modifications to the gas block, plug and bolt carrier.
After all, an L1A1 procured as parts is only a collection of Sec1 parts, so built up with the new barrel it's a Sec1 rifle.
You can't do the same thing with an existing Sec5 L1A1, because it retains its Sec5 designation no matter what you subsequently do to it.
Edit: Also as a complete Sec5 firearm, its history is known via end users documentation, RFD registers, etc. So you can't just strip it down and say, look what I found!
That's why a certain UK based dealer came to get the high jump the other year, because he was rather stupidly down converting sec5 firearms to Straight pull!
Mmmmmmmmmm......... The barrel can have a gas port too. There is a legal precedence for this situation too. However, if that is the case, the gas block MUST be solid. But anyone with such a pre ban straight-pull rifle is skating on thin ice without compensation under the authority entrusted to the Home Secretary
Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Laidler
Its a tricky situation Peter, a right minefield in fact. I do think to play it safe though, use a new manufacture barrel that's never been near a Sec5 firearm.
I do have the original receipts from the main dealers for both my rifles, stating the S/N and stating Sec1 parts kits.
My Lithgow came from a very well known large UK dealer who happens to probably have enough parts kits to re-equip the British army!