Was the Bren canvas sling much longer than the standard No4 rifle sling ?
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Was the Bren canvas sling much longer than the standard No4 rifle sling ?
Yes, with a hook at each end
Peter do you the length of the Bren sling ? I have seen Bren slings listed for sale, but they look like No.4 slings with hooks added .
I don't know off hand. I'll come back tomorrow unless someone wants to come in beforehand
Does 58" sound right?
Non-Patterned Webbing
One which I have and was sold to me as being for Bren, with a hook at each end, and without undoing each end works out at about 54" long.
There's quite a bit of info here, the lengths seem to vary just a bit by a couple inches... https://www.milsurps.com/showthread.php?t=38139
Yes, the length of Bren slings does seem to vary by a few inches. But noticeably longer than the rifle sling
Very easily seen too...it's not one of those things that you can mistake.Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Laidler
You're rigtht BAR! You'd notice it if you were carrying a Bren with a rifle sling with said Bren up around your neck! The very best idea was to simply use the L7/GPMG sling. I'm not sure whether this was ever an approved thing but it certainly had some tacit approval from, well.......somewhere! Because if you ordered the od Bren sling on the part number it came back as NLA (=no longer available) - no dues out. Re-order using the GPMG C1 part number. I did it for my sons school Cadet Force L4's and got them 6 or so.
I did try to get L42 slings for their target rifle shooting team and the school WO got a snotygram back telling him that the demand had been blocked due to unit cost - of £100+ each!
I have noticed, occasionally, people attempting to sell rifle slings as Bren slings simply by attaching hooks at each end, saying it's a Bren sling and then asking the higher price that Bren slings tend to go for. Were the shorter rifle slings sometimes used on the Bren if a "short" sling was required for some specific reason/operation?
There's Bren slings and not Bren slings...so no.Quote:
Originally Posted by Flying10uk
The ONLY instance of RIFLE sling's being used with Bren.
Was x 2 of them, fitted to the Tripod. To enable it to be carried on a Soldiers Back in the Field. :cheers::cheers:
And not that Ammo/utility X harness often sold as the Bren Tripod carrier. It's so universally known by the Dealers that they are for the tripod that no one can persuade them its bollocks!
Up until mid 1944 ALL Bren slings were standard length rifle slings with hooks added. Briefly there was a version with about 12 inches of extra strap riveted into the middle of the sling with two folded brass plates. Once long slings entered the supply chain the extended versions stop being seen.
ATB
Tom
I'm not so sure about that Tom........ Don't have my CES papers here and handy but I'm convinced that the gun was introduced with a long sling. There were shortages of course, hence the authority to extend rifle slings to suit. Like I always say, I stand to be corrected
Cool, if you can find a CES that refers to a 58" sling prior to 1944 I'll be convinced, but there's zip so far, Or if someone has one dated 1943 or earlier. Everything from LoCs, D,D,(E)., ACIs, the parts lists I've seen etc refer to rifle slings.
ATB
Tom
As Tom says No long Bren slings before 44 - Weapons: SlingsQuote:
Originally Posted by tankhunter
If that's the case, and I don't misbelieve it, then it really defies belief. A short rifle length Bren sling would be purgatory to use to carry the gun. It'd be far too high. The gun would be up under your arm pit. I'll have a read of the introduction detail........ again!
I just checked my small supply and the Canadian ZL&T Ltd. ones are 56" and the British MEC 57". All are dated '44. I could have sworn I had a Canadian one that was dated '43 but could be wrong and it's long gone!
The Aussies had a 57 inch SMG sling in 1943 and could have slapped hooks on that to use with the Bren.
Having had a quick look at the British wartime training manuals I haven't found any references to the Bren being fired on the move, from the hip like, where a long sling would be a necessity. All the ones I've seen refer to it being fired from the bipod prone or from behind cover with it supported. The late war Indian army training manual with its bias towards jungle warfare does show the LMG being fired from the hip and the web sling for the Vickers-Berthier was long enough, more easily adjusted and had a much wider central section to spread the weight.
Are there any wartime jungle warfare training manuals that introduced firing from the hip for the Bren?
ATB
Tom
It may seem like a stupid question, but when we are asking and quoting the lengths of the Bren slings are we including the hooks at each end or in the case for the MK3, one end? When I quoted the length in Post 6 I didn't include the hooks in the length that I quoted.
I didn't measure with the hooks.
I was stating from the 'Generally' accepted view, that is well know by collectors per say. Your 'composite' sling mentioned on that site. is VERY rare indeed!Quote:
Originally Posted by Kev G
& I am surprised it has survived at all! These normally in service, would have been weeded out & back loaded for disposal/ destruction in British Service.
When the 'Correct' Length sling was introduced. It is possible I suppose, that your sling may have gone back to Ord Stores & been transferred along with other 'Gift Aid' products/ equipment. To Other Allied Friendly Nations. To support their respective Forces post war. That were in the 'Poorer' financial bracket?
I have NEVER seen or heard of a sling in British Service Post war Kev. That is similar to your composite sling. It is a VERY rare bird indeed! ;)
As a paradox, 'That' website mentions the MUCH shorter O.M.L 2" Mortar Sling. But does not show a photo of it. They also are rare now on the Civy Collecting Circuit in the UK!
The supposed length of sling does not include the hooks, it's listed as a separate part with its own number at 58 inches. To confuse matters that's the length at the point of manufacture and doesn't allow for shrinkage over the next 70 years or stretching in use. Officially the webbing should have been pre shrunk before being cut but that could have not occurred to cut corners or in the case of Mills the Germans blew up their shrinking plant in 1940 or 41, I forget which.
I've only ever seen three of the 3 sectioned slings and I've owned 2 of them ( are they the ones you now have Kev? I've lost all track). Any how the ACI 377 of 1944 has full instructions for making them, with drawings . Interestingly the one of the completed sling shows only one hook. ACI 1327 of December 1945 cancels ACI 377 and says there's enough proper 58 slings to replace all the 46 inch rifle slings that are still in use on Brens but not those already lengthened. No doubt as soon as there were sufficient 58 inch slings available immediately post war the cobbled together ones were got rid of. Incidentally one of the slings I had used flat tape between the riveted plates rather than proper rifle sling.
I think I have one of those short 2" mortar slings but worn and dirty so I never photographed it, that I was kindly given back when I had a 2 inch mortar to go with. Mind saying that I've a few unused sling ends and a tin of the right rivets so since I don't think they were made after the period they regularly had the stores code stamped on any unscrupulous person could make some minters assuming they have some NoS rifle slings spare! I wouldn't do it but buyers beware! PS I don't need the 2" sling anymore, if I can find it its up for swaps.
Incidentally I've scanned in 515 jpgs of Bren LoCs ( Some are for the L1A1 as they were there and mixed amongst the L4 ones ) if anybody wants them.
If some of this stuff seams to be repeating what's on Khaki Web, well Rog Dennis will tell you were they got a lot of it from ;-)
ATB
Tom
Tombear,
"Are there any wartime jungle warfare training manuals that introduced firing from the hip for the Bren?"
I don't have access to any Australian Infantry Pams from '43 onward to quote, but I can confirm that there are oodles of photos and a couple of short propaganda films made that shows the No 1 gunner firing the Bren from his hip both using a sling (easy) or hanging on to the barrel handle (quite a bit more difficult!). Walking fire while advancing through close country, in particular the kunai grass in PNG necessitated changes of tactics. Our blokes usually adapted pretty much everything in the field to suit the environment.
Fast forward to Vietnam and while the No 1 on the gun was issued a sling, they were rarely seen in a Battalion when in the bush. Just not the done thing.
Cheers! I'd seen news reel with Aussies advancing to contact with Brens held at hip height so thought it must have had entered doctrine for jungle fighting. I think Kev sent me a drawing of a Australian proposed forward hand grip to fit on the Brens folded bipod to make this easier.
Somewhere I have a pic taken during the Malayan Emergency where the slings been rigged for firing from the hip, there's a 100 round mag fitted and the bipod has been removed or at least stripped down to lose weight and reducing snagging. I vaguely remember it had a modified Owen fore grip fitted. If I could remember the unit I'd probably be able to find it. You kinda suspect it was loaded with tracer ( there was no raised sights) and on contact the gunner just emptied the lot to keep the CTs heads down!
ATB
Tim
According to the Far East EMER, the modification (called a FEMod) whatever it was of 1952 (or was it 1954...?, don't have papers handy) gave the details for the modification. It entailed drilling a hole into the trough at the front of the butt slide - that is covered by the ejection opening cover - and fitting a specially made* pistol grip that was available from Ordnance, the bolt from the Mk2 type grip and a nut. I have a very feint copy of the original xerox local EMER. I have seen photos of others but the real thing was much further back and you could fold the bipod rearwards and stiull use the fore-grip.
The trouble with the 'others' and those 'lovingly recreated for the discerning re-enactor' touted on those auction sites are too far forwards and not rigid enough. The very last thing you need on a rock and roll Bren is a sloppy fitting grip, believe me! And don't forget, the reason it was positioned some 3.5" rearwards of the front mounting pin hole was so that the shortarsed Gurkhas, Malays and Fiji etc etc troops could use same.
*The EMER spec/authority for the modification says that the grips were a specially made or new pattern but according to two old Armourers from the Armourers Association I corresponded with both separately stated that they weren't new but just modified existing patterns, chopped and shaped to suit. The FEMOD doesn't seem to include the small steel anti-rotation peg either but maybe it's there but doesn't show on the flimsy xerox copy I have. It would always be worth looking under the butt slide of Mk2 or 3 butt slides/guns to see whether any trace of the larger (and smaller anti rotation peg) holes are present or have been welded up.
While the subject has gone on to forward grips :-) has anyone a clear pic of a Bren in Malaya that has a forward grip that ISN'T off an Owen gun ?
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...x5huji1y-1.jpg
Pic above has forward moded Owen grip but no flash hider,bipod or rear mounting bracket.
ATB KG
Those omissions beg a lot of questions KG! Doesn't look like it's got a backsight either so how on earth do you aim and shoot a sightless gun? And why on earth would the bloke be holding a duff Bren by the (soon to be glowing red hot) gas cylinder instead of the pistol grip. But there's more.......... If my old eye's aren't mistaken is that an original two-vent gas cylinder. If it is, you haven't got a Bren machine gun, you've got a Bren straight pull single shot rifle. Scaling up the barrel from the gas block forwards it looks like it has been cut short too. Maybe it's just me but I think we need to see a bit more or know a bit more about that, er....., thing!
If it does run, it would sure roar...in the close bush...
Cheers for the pic Kev, its the clearest one of the Owen foregrip mod ive seen, normally theres a hand in the way. I wish i was a machinist as that would look right nice on my Mk 3! It just so happens is I have a NOS Owen foregrip squirreled away somewhere...
ATB
Tom
That spacer bears no semblance to reality - or necessity. What is it? A heat-sink or what?
No idea, they all seam to have them.
http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/7...elipad%201.jpg
I was wondering if it's some part of a vehicle or AA mount that they found a way to cobble a Owen grip to.
https://laststandonzombieisland.files.wordpress.com/2015/07/malay-and-new-zealand-soldiers-on-a-jungle-patrol-c1957.jpg
http://www.alamy.com/stock-photo-1962-an-anti-terrorist-patrol-in-malaya-up-to-their-armpits-in-the-99799162.html
ATB
Tom
Cropped photo of B Company on patrol Malaya.Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Laidler
Credit - Robert Bonners book 'Jungle Bashers'.
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...48dd5tha-1.jpg
Same pattern 'heat sink'
Also have an Owen grip squirreled away Tom :-)
ATB KG
Yep, you're both right. Heat sink.....? No need as the grip is well away from the piston and gas cylinder. Could it be a simple spacer to, well....., space the grip? Both pics show the blokes wearing what look like jackets instead of the usual issue JG shirts. No webbing either except for a water bottle. Any ideas where he might have stuck his extra magazines?
I wonder if it's the same gun personally as I can't see the bipod or backsight either.
Looks like I'll have to get these papers back pronto to show the official instruction.
Pic above is Manchester Regiment.
1st pic I posted was Royal Lincoln Regiment.
THE MALAYAN EMERGENCY, 1948-1960 (D 88040)
ATB KG
---------- Post added at 08:33 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:24 PM ----------
Peter the reference to 'heat sink' was tongue in cheek :-)
Not sure as Tom has mentioned if it was adapted from another bit of kit to mate the Owen grip to the Bren ?
Here's another one (btm rh corner)-
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...8xayussr-1.jpg
ATB KG
All points taken on board KG. But I never saw an Owen grip on a Bren in real life although to be fair, only ever saw a couple of the real thing too in my time. They were definitely in use in Borneo along the ridges and watchtowers. Manchesters and Lincolns were VERY early......, pre 1954/55 I'd guess. I don't know how early (but someone will tell me..........). Maybe these pre-dated the official introduction. But in any case modifications to weapons are tightly controlled for obvious safety reasons
The Manchesters are in the time frame you mention and the Lincs picture is dated Nov 1957 .
However the one below is a close up of a pic Tom give a link to from Borneo in the 60's with the same arrangement on an L4.
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...cqailuw5-1.jpg
ATB KG