Lithgow No1 Mk3 sticky extraction.

Hey everyone,

I purchased my first No1 Mk3 a few weeks ago and have little idea what is and isn't normal on the rifle. The rifle was FILTHY when i got it and i have given it a deep clean since i got it. I have not shot it at all 1) because the firing pin is sheared off and i am waiting on a replacement, and 2) I am a little suspicious of the way it loads and extracts live rounds. First, on the loading, it takes effort, and im ok with that, if its the way its supposed to be. There is a clear inverted V on the feeding ramp where the copper jacket of the FMJ is essentially stripping off. (Again, not sure if thats normal or not). The second issue is that there is about as much effort to extract the live round as there is to load it. The first 1 1/2 inches of the round are not what i would call HARD to extract, but, stiff, for sure. After that, its pretty easy. Now again, im sorry but im a noob, if this is proper. AWESOME! Im set, but if not, What do you guys think i should do to remedy the problems?

Not normal at all. We need some pics here to see though. Nice and clear, not just phone pics at a distance...the "V" that's stripping the jacket isn't right. They're a smooth rifle and none of that's right.

The chamber may be slightly rough so you need to be able to view it (bore scope) which may require judicious polishing VERY VERY LIGHTLY, Lee's cock on closing so they require a smidge more effort in the last 1/2" or so before being able to close on battery, the feed ramp should not really have a V in it though it indicates the rifle has had its share of rounds poked through it. I polish the feed ramps on mine very lightly with a small dremel buffing wheel and light polishing compound till they shine
Post some pics (good quality ones) then the chaps here with the plethora of hands on experience will assist where they can.
Be aware though you never stop at one..............................

Shortened firing pin? Maximum caution here. Inspect this rifle very thoroughly and ensure the firing pin wasn't shortened for a reason.

I would agree, the firing pin is a red flag, get her professionally checked out before shooting.

Does it have the letters "DP" stamped on it anywhere?

No DP stamped or marked anywhere on the gun at all, not exactly sure where to look or how small or big it would be, but im pretty intimate with the rifle at this point. I just have no idea what is normal or not.

Ok Gents i've attached as many pics and as clear as i could get them. I also attached pics of the firing pin issue. I can take the extractor and spring out it you guys would like. I can also take some full detailed pictures of the entire rifle so you guys can see all markings if you would like. I didn't want to overload with pics. You guys let me know. I really do appreciate the advice gents. maybe i should just sell it and buy one from someone that already knows its working properly? It is fun learning about the rifle and my God are they beautiful.

Looks like an Australian example by the MA marking...and actually looks to be in pretty good condition. Hard to say why the firing pin was broken off but it's not the first time I've see it either. The "V" you describe isn't untoward, it's just the mark from the bullet points riding up the feedway. from what you show me it looks OK. Give it a detailed clean and oil and take it to a gunsmith for firing pin replacement and a thorough examination and test fire. Make sure the gunsmith is well versed in these rifles before you leave it...

I have a couple of thngs; the bolt rib has a marring on it 1st pic bottom of rib, pics 5-6-7 what is all that gunk near the chamber looks like powder or brass chips!, pic 6 may be impossible and a bit of lint and such but the feed ramp looks like it has a crack in it just left of center that copper marking will come off easily with a bit of work, lastly pics 10-12 it looks like the bolt heads face has marks like striations possibly someone fitted a new bolt head and worked the face of the bolt head at least that is what the pictures seems to portray.

I would heed Jims advice and get it checked over by someone who is familiar with Lee Enfields the guys here can only help so much with out having the rifle in their hands but great pics by the way the markings will tell the knowledgeable ones its story I am only a neophyte with these things.

The brass chips are my main concern actually. The chamber was clean as a whistle, this was literally me cycling 20 live rounds through the action. All the brass and copper on the feed ramp is just off of those 20 rds. That resistance and the residue is what got me concerned in the first place. I left the brass and copper in place so that you guys could take a look.

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Originally Posted by lcgivz12

The brass chips are my main concern actually. The chamber was clean as a whistle, this was literally me cycling 20 live rounds through the action. All the brass and copper on the feed ramp is just off of those 20 rds. That resistance and the residue is what got me concerned in the first place. I left the brass and copper in place so that you guys could take a look.

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Cover a couple of rounds with a marker and feed them in, see where its shaving the brass off them

You got it. Ill do that and post pictures of where its coming off. At work now but it will be up tonight.

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Originally Posted by lcgivz12

That resistance and the residue is what got me concerned in the first place. I left the brass and copper in place so that you guys could take a look.

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That's fresh parkerizing will do that. Perhaps it's in the chamber too. We used to parkerize them and then use machine paper in the chamber on a madrell to clean all traces out of there so it will chamber and extract smoothly again.

My first thought would be look closely at the ammunition you're using......commercial or reloads?

Im using PPU fmj's

What would be the easiest way for an average joe to to clean up the parkerizing in a safe and thorough way?

Parkerizing is a coating that forms on top of the metal, that's why military uses it. It can hold lubricants and will actually make the surface rougher than it started. You can use a stainless bore brush, a piece of oiled machine paper, scotchbright, steel wool...anything you'd use to equally remove rust. Cinders eluded to his use of a polishing wheel to clean the feedway, he's done it lots and has proved it's application. Depends on how much you want to smooth it. He's gone to a glass finish. Your chamber, same thing. Use machine paper, 400 grit or so and use a mandrel on a drill to wrap and push it inside. Use lots of oil and keep polishing until it smooths up. If the chamber is coated so's the bore. Get a stainless steel brush and a good rod and clean the bore out too. A good Phosphor bronze brush would also do the bore if you can get a Parker Hale rod and brush, I have hundreds of them so that's what I use...

Let us know...

Lateral thought - might barrel be chambered as 7.7 x 54R? (Not the Russian calibre, but the Australian civilian shortened .303)

I imagine that a 303 would be a tight fit - don't know how these rifles were marked externally to indicate different chamber.

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Originally Posted by Maxwell Smart

7.7 x 54R

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I seriously doubt it. He's in Texas. Maybe in Australia it could be.

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Originally Posted by browningautorifle

I seriously doubt it. He's in Texas. Maybe in Australia it could be.

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Agree it would be unlikely, but just a thought. Might be interesting to see a photo of the end of the nosecap to see how far barrel protrudes.

It looks to me like the feed ramp needs to be smoothed off, there looks to be a crack on the right side and a gouge on the left side and that would tear the projectile leave brass chips and cause the hard loading. On a normal well used rifle the feed ramp will be coloured a bronze colour from the constant feeding of projectiles, but it is only very thin and if you are that fastidious is easily buffed off.

Dick

Had a look close up and its lint casting a shadow on the feed ramp but those brass chips are everywhere is the underside of the mags front feed lips smooth with no sharp bits that will scrape the side of the case as it is stripped. Also is the flat spring fitted on the front of the mag this sits in-front of the follower on the magazine body (Spring Auxillary "B") that would leave a sharp edge of the mag box that may scrape the cases

You're right to be a bit concerned in my humble opinion. That bolt head looks to me like the vent (pic, bottom row, 4 & 5) has been brazed up. Photo 4 top row - is the bolt head underhang chipped too? It also looks to me like those 'improved' slots in the feed ramp have been put there by a bubba home enthusiast with a blunt hack saw blade or an out of control dremill tool. As for that amount of brass swarf is a cause for great concern too. These are smooth running rifles and that indicates big problems to me. Just my opinion of course based on nothing more than having seen a few ---- zillion!

The flat spring in the mag is in place and seems to be..... springy lol. I tried taking a sharpie and coloring the brass to see where the case was being shaved and I couldn't tell wheather it was the bottom or the left side. However, it was always the last 1/4 of the case I would say around the 8 o'clock position. If anyone wants any more pictures please just let me know... and Thank you all for helping me. I sincerely appreciate it.]I'm not sure I am qualified to be mucking around to much with this. If anyone has a qualified individual that I can send this off to, I'd really appreciate the info.

Send or discuss it with Brian at BDL Ltd in SC. He's the US Enfield man to go to. But he's a straight talking man so don't be alarmed when he tells it like it is............

Gotta say, I reckon it was welded or brazed up.
I would downgrade it to DP pretty quick.
Beside the bodgy work done on the bolt and bolthead, there are fatigue fractures on the feed ramp, the barrel seat for the cartridge looks to have been cleaned up and there are heat marks at the front of the action just behind the chamber, also a couple of marks in the chamber.......may have been plugged.

The brass shavings are probably caused by the left front magazine feed rib, the projectiles are being pushed over to the right side.
Also the bolt guide looks a bit ratty at the front, the extractor slot looks a bit off, as does the extractor .....has the barrel been removed?
The angles of the pics are not really showing the action from the front.

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Originally Posted by muffett.2008

there are heat marks at the front of the action just behind the chamber, also a couple of marks in the chamber.......may have been plugged.

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I don't think it's a weld up... I think if he sends it off to BDL, we'll find there's not much at all wrong.

Just some closeups of the areas that concern me.
Attachment 83311note the crack extending up the loading ramp, also the heat marked area. You can see the pitting in the chamber.
Attachment 83310note the rough face of the chamber, of the thousands of these I have done, I have never seen a seat this bad. Note the heat marks at the front.

Attachment 83309 This is what Pete was looking at, appears to have braze around areas of Bolthead, and heat discolouration. Also the bolthead gap, seen better in other pic's.

Really need better pic's. But I would be giving it a good going over.

Muffett click on the original pics then hit the enlarge icon it really blows them up for minute examination

If testing the loading and unloading , may I humbly suggest using blank rounds instead of live ones!

Has this got its original barrel in it?? Any chance someone has put a bar though the action and twisted the action of the barrel thread?

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Originally Posted by muffett.2008

note the crack

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That's not a crack, unless I can't see what you mean. There's a sliver of something standing vertical but if he cleaned all that off for us it would provide a different picture.

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Originally Posted by muffett.2008

note the rough face of the chamber

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I see the rough, dirty appearance and agree it needs a good look. I can't for the life of me make out any heat discoloration though... I wish he's clean and oil and come back with new pics. The bolt head, well...if we could get our noses over top it might be different. Completely agree about better pics and if he understood what you wanted it would be better, location wise.

The whole thing could be as you say, I just think there's less here than meets the eye... If he sends it off to BDL, we'll get definitive...?

#21 I mentioned there was a piece of lint that is as you say Jim vertical and makes it appear the feed ramp has a crack in it on further blowing up of the pic it is lint perhaps IC used a flash and this caused a shadow...? But I cannot make out any crack in the feed ramp by using the enlarge box on the original pics posted.

I just wish one of us, almost any one of us...could have a hands on look so as to be able to see. I'd give it a good clean and oil and try some good reliable drill ammo to see...even if I made it from new ball.

It does look like a little crack to me also. Keen eye muffer!

---------- Post added at 10:20 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:19 AM ----------

It does look like a little crack to me. Keen eye muffer!

---------- Post added at 10:21 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:20 AM ----------

It does look like a little crack to me also. Good eye muffer!

Piece of lint at @6:30 o'clock shadow caused by flash unless all the other striations on ramp are cracks.

I'm so convinced I said it three times😂

It's coming here so rest easy.

We await your report.

Glad to hear it will get a proper inspection. Not worth the risk having something break !

I have come across a few WW2 dated Lithgows that had hard extraction but found if you removed the up & too the left force you apply to the bolt when opening, (ie pull straight back with downwards pressure with your hand over instead of under the bolt handle) they would extract fine

Operating a Lee Enfield bolt was ALWAYS supposed to be via the users "THUMB AND FORE-FINGER", never the palm or whatever other bits were available. This is NOT a Mauser.

The "well-trained" operators would crank the bolt with thumb and fore-finger and operate the trigger with the index finger. May not be ideal for "bullseye" shooting, but you can put ten round down-range, with a reasonable amount of "field" accuracy, in a VERY short time.

Furthermore, the system, when it left the factory / Base Workshop, etc, had two special features regarding locking and unlocking.

The locking surfaces are cut at a helix angle of one turn in 0.10 inches. This meant that during final lock-up, there is a camming action applied to the cartridge as it enters the chamber.

On UNLOCKING, the appropriate camming surfaces on the body and bolt are cut at a helix angle of one turn in ONE inch.

Thus, there is a good bit of primary extraction leverage applied to the fired case as the bolt handle is lifted and the bolt body rotated.

Thus, with a shorter bolt-handle "lift" and, because of the rear locking system. the Lee-Enfield can be cycled a LOT faster than a Mauser or Nagant, etc.

Furthermore, the location of the bolt handle at "lockup" is almost perfect for the firing hand to come straight up from the trigger, grasp the bolt, (with thumb and forefinger), and cycle the (short) action.

If the rifle was FTR'd in the '50's, it may be partly stiff through lack of use.
I have one like that, and the bolt needed some work to get it loosened up.

Post edited, as I replied to thread at the bottom of page 1! (Now redundant)

Best,
R.

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Originally Posted by Bruce_in_Oz

Operating a Lee Enfield bolt was ALWAYS supposed to be via the users "THUMB AND FORE-FINGER", never the palm or whatever other bits were available. This is NOT a Mauser.

The "well-trained" operators would crank the bolt with thumb and fore-finger and operate the trigger with the index finger. May not be ideal for "bullseye" shooting, but you can put ten round down-range, with a reasonable amount of "field" accuracy, in a VERY short time.

Furthermore, the system, when it left the factory / Base Workshop, etc, had two special features regarding locking and unlocking.

The locking surfaces are cut at a helix angle of one turn in 0.10 inches. This meant that during final lock-up, there is a camming action applied to the cartridge as it enters the chamber.

On UNLOCKING, the appropriate camming surfaces on the body and bolt are cut at a helix angle of one turn in ONE inch.

Thus, there is a good bit of primary extraction leverage applied to the fired case as the bolt handle is lifted and the bolt body rotated.

Thus, with a shorter bolt-handle "lift" and, because of the rear locking system. the Lee-Enfield can be cycled a LOT faster than a Mauser or Nagant, etc.

Furthermore, the location of the bolt handle at "lockup" is almost perfect for the firing hand to come straight up from the trigger, grasp the bolt, (with thumb and forefinger), and cycle the (short) action.

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I was never saying using your palm, when operating the bolt with your thumb & fore-finger your hand is located below the the bolt so you have a natural tendency to lift the bolt body up & to the left, what i'm saying by placing your hand over the top to stop the up & left push.

Didn't mean to imply you were advocating "poor" procedure, just going back to my initial training on the old girls.

The business of "bolt handle lift" at the point of ignition has always intrigued me.

It may be related to several factors:

The "surface grade (roughness) of the end faces of the striker spring. These ends are supposed to be "closed and ground". If there is "roughness", they will bind to the striker collar and to the interior of the bolt body and "wind-up" a little as the action is closed.

"Sloppy" radial fit of bolt body to receiver body. This allows the bolt body to move in ways the designers never intended. The helical locking surfaced simply act as "ramps" for such errant movement.

The "controversial" one is bolt handle contact with the RHS of the butt socket / ferrule. This may also act in conjunction with "causes" one and two. I have seen several samples where, if the bolt is closed and the handle lifted a few thou CLEAR of contact, the bolt handle does NOT "flick" up. The "cheap and cheerful" solution was to carefully grind away a suitable amount of material from the underside of the handle to obtain a minimum clearance.

Uneven or "one-sided" lug contact would not help, either.

Excessive "fore and aft" movement is primarily caused by poor, (excessive), headspace. This in turn has a number of causes. Quick test: compare the "handle jump" differences between dry-firing the action with and without a "good" dummy round present.

Note also that, when a "live' round is fired, the striker is driven back a very short distance, but quite "smartly" as the propellant charge gets up to full pressure and hammers back on the indented primer, which, in turn, pushes back on the tip of the striker.

Trying to resolve multiple variables simultaneously is a mathematical and, by extension, engineering nightmare.

Ok guys, Ive been a little busy these last couple weeks but was able to send my lithgow out to Brian. First off, let me state, He is a great guy, straight talking and very honest, if you need any work on your enfields i could not recommend him higher. Anyway, he took a look at my rifle and it has official been cleared. He has informed me that it is in perfect Aussie condition. Thank you all so much for all the info that you guys have given me over the last few weeks regarding the rifle. I can't show my appreciation enough.

Glad it all worked out for you but I have to ask Brian what is "perfect Aussie Condition" ? Peter L did they train you in that condition when you were in the land of Vegemite and 'roos......:confused:

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Originally Posted by lcgivz12

in perfect Aussie condition

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There you go, no cracks or deletions...

He meant to say that except for a long term lack of TLC, it's exactly as it left R/MA 12/46 at Lithgow. It''s a superb example of a 1940 rifle rebuilt post war. The 1945 date barrel is perfect and gauges tight as a tick.

I fired it with Portuguese FNM 1972 Mk.7z after a good servicing and it fed and functioned flawlessly. The tight chamber problem is ammo related and has nothing to do with the rifle.

Thanks Brian the thread did have some interesting information in it you must agree it is better to be safe than sorry as no one knows the past lives/life these old war horses have had.

Everyone's input is greatly appreciated. I'm always concerned about the condition of the drawers in SMLE forends, especially coachwood and Queensland maple when somewhat dark and oil soaked. This rifle had little to no use since rebuild and is exceptional. It just needed a good inspection and servicing. Keep the screws tight, barrel clean, shoot and enjoy. Now all he needs is some decent ammo.

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Originally Posted by Brian Dick

Portuguese FNM 1972 Mk.7z

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Sell him a boxcar full of that then...it's some of the finest.

I wish I had a large enough supply to sell. The days of me having lots of excellent Mk.7z available for sale are long gone.

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Originally Posted by Brian Dick

I wish I had a large enough supply to sell.

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In which case...you'd still hold onto it.

I sold Greek, South African, and the Portuguese Mk.7z for many years. I bought 10,000 rounds at a time of all three when it was available. I wish I'd been able to buy more. We tested all three for accuracy and the FNM was by far the best. I use the small supply I have left pretty much strictly for range testing now. I can still offer some Greek for walk in customers and purchasers of rifles but that''s about it. I''m not set up to ship ammo anyhow.