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I got these a while ago and realized they were the incorrect collars for my 25th ALH hat badge I have from a distant relative along with the 10th ALH as well possibly from my mum's side.
Thing is I am pretty certain they are made in India as they look just that bit to good they cost a bit probably done my dough but we live and learn.
I had one chap look at them a 2nd hand dealer and he would not say one way or the other?
I would say that the badges are rough sand(?) castings of a brass alloy. Cast into a mould formed by another well worn badge. Usually badges are just thin brass pressed into a perfect steel former
Looks like you done your dough Cinders, poor castings in my eyes. You may want to contact a badge dealer here in Australia (Vic), Les Stillman, nice bloke and always guaranteed!!
When I first started getting into collecting militaria I decided that a good place to start would be shed loads of "genuine" cap badges. Unfortunately I was a bit too trustworthy of the dealers who made the claim on the badges being "genuine" and before I had heard of "re-strikes". The story that I have since been told is that the MOD sold/got rid of many of it's old obsolete cap badge press tools for scrap, intending it to go for scrap metal. Fortunately or unfortunately, depending on the way that you look at it, someone realised what the tooling was and took upon themselves not to scrap it. Allegedly many of the reproduction cap badges for British military regiments available today are reproduced using original tooling. I did wonder why some of my original "genuine" cap badges looked so pristine, almost new.
It wasn't the MoD who owned the press tooling for the badges and buttons etc etc, it was the manufacturers in Birmingham such as James Gaunt, Firmins and Buttons Ltd who made to order. The question really is whether the badge was made for the War Department (or later the MoD) or a later joint order from a group oif dealers. Want an example.........
With 'staybrite' being the norm, some soldiers want an old brass one that they can polish. No problem......., so the Regiment or Corps goes to the manufacturer - who is probably already making their stable belts and watch straps etc etc - and orders, say, 200 brass cap badges which are sold by the 'Corps shop' or the PRI at cost plus a bit of profit. What are they? Fake or real? The SASC, REME and many other regiments do it especially those regiments that haven't had subtle changes made to their badges since the year dot. Original design, press tools.......
Was it always the manufacturer who owned the tooling for the cap badges, Peter? In the private sector sometimes the customer paid to have the press tooling made and so obviously owned the tooling and would take the tooling to whoever they wanted to do the manufacturing. In other cases the customer didn't want to pay for any tooling and so, if the work warranted it, the manufacturer had the tooling made but charged a little extra for the articles produced in order to recover the costs. Occasionally problems could occur, after some years, about who owned the tooling with both both the customer and the manufacturer claiming to own the same piece of tooling. I have known of several instances of these sorts of disputes, in the past, but they don't tend to happen so much nowadays because less metal is punched out with hard tooling.
It isn't just a matter of who owns the tooling. The design belongs to the organization (MOD or DOD for corps or regiments) usually so the organization has to approve use of the design. Historically, this became an issue in Australia after WWI when various groups or individuals wanted to use the Rising Sun insignia for financial gain or other purposes.
Good point.Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul S.
Ah........, but the thread and Cinders weren't talking about who owns the tooling and the IPR's or rights and wrongs. It's all about whether, even long afterwards, badges made from the original tooling are real or fake. I say our REME and SASC badges were real, made on the original Gaunt tooling albeit 50 years later. Same as MGB front King Pin sets originally cast and machined by Broadfields. Now made for a conglomerate of MG spares suppliers. Are they real or fake?
I was told that re-strikes generally use a cheaper brass which tends to look more yellow in colour. My experience of re-strikes is that this is probably true to a certain extent, depending on how critical you wish to be. For the average bloke in the street the slight difference in the colour of the brass which may be present is not going to be noticed. The colour of the cap beret clip on the back can vary slightly according to some purist. I do have an original Royal Flying Corp badge of WW1 and a present day re-strike and the only real difference between the 2 is the lack of patina in the modern re-strike.
It is here that we start splitting hairs. Original tooling, original manufacturer: real as Peter asks. Or, perhaps more correctly, 'original equipment manufacturer' (OEM). Then, we have things like my grand-dad's WWI cap
badge. The one made in 1914 is vintage and hence 'original'. While the one made in recent times on the same tooling, etc. is a reproduction - and yes, original.
For me personally, I'll accept both as 'original' and the one made back in the day as 'vintage'.
I believe that there may be a 3rd way of producing reproduction badges but at the moment I can't remember the method. Cinders in Post 1 are cast brass, there are re-strikes using original tooling and I think the 3rd method may use some form of press tool but not the original tooling and doesn't produce such good results. Is anyone able to confirm and provide more details, please?