Some .22 conversions

Its a wet and windy bank holiday and I'm bored so I thought I would post some pictures of some unusual .22 trainers.

Top is a patt 18 303/ 22.
Next a Saxby Palmer conversion
Next a Remington patt 14 .22 trainer
Last a .22 number 5 trials rifle.

The Saxby Palmer is an air cartridge conversion from the 1970's.
Its classed in the UK as a prohibited firearm and illegal possession gets you a minimum 5 years in the slammer. Luckily when they banned them they allowed owners to keep them on a firearm certificate. Only a handful were declared so were any sent abroad or are they all hiding in the UK?
I read somewhere that Saxby Palmer converted around a 1000 No4's to air cartridge.
As you can see from the pictures the conversion is quite extensive and has destroyed the
ability for it to function as a true cartridge rifle.
The air cartridges called TAC's are pressurized by an divers air bottle or pump and the air is released sending the .22 pellet up the barrel when the firing pin hits the base of the cartridge. The muzzle energy is around 12 ft/lbs.
The TAC's are shaped to simulate 303 rounds and fit into charger clips, load from the magazine, extract and eject just like the real thing.

I'm the worlds worst at taking photos but if anyone would like to see pictures of any of the other three rifles I'll see what I can do.

No prize but can you guess what firearm type the red disc in picture 1 marked 190 came from? Ignore the hole and number. The gun is still in service around the world.

Very interesting piece. First I've actually seen. It's sad that the bureaucracies have deemed this a dangerous weapon and taken it from history... It just makes it rarer and more valuable to us I guess. The cartridges alone must be worth a fortune.

Interesting conversions, slight correction, they became avalable in 1985/86.

I've only ever seen two other converted No4's, interestingly both based on Savage builds.

I have one of the Saxby and Palmer Model 54 revolvers on my FAC, it's a bit of a safe queen to be honest, but I wanted​ to protect it from destruction.

I recall a few companies doing convertions of other firearms too before it was all stopped by the fun police, M1 carbine and Enfield revolver prototypes come to mind among others.

All now considered Sec5 prohibited in the UK, unless you registered them on your FAC at the time of the ban (2004), can't be sold or gifted and need to be destroyed upon surrender of your FAC.

Lots weren't surrendered and I believe less than 50 of the converted No4's were eventually registered. My local force aren't even aware of the No4 builds!

Very interesting builds...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mrclark303

I have one of the Saxby and Palmer Model 54 revolvers

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Any chance of seeing that?

I will get her out of the safe and photograph her Jim.

Many years ago, I was temted to by a SP No4 and was the first one I had ever seen, but I had spent up on a Deactivated Sterling in fact at the same arms fair there was a guy selling a Blank firing MP40, was a realy nice example, dont recall the maker........

I wish I had bought one too Geoff, I know of one example locally and came across a rare Parker Hale Herald air cartridge sporting rifle a few years ago.

This was off ticket and ended up being surrendered. The owner had no idea it was illigal.

Ironically even my local Sec5 dealer (who is licensed for hand gun, semi and full auto firearms) can't handle or repair them as they arnt specifically named on his Sec5 RFD!

So he can repair your Vickers Gun, but he can't touch your air rifle...

I seemkto recall that these S&P air conversions came under the 'easily converted to metallic cartridge' category by default really as opposed to the main intenmtion. So the blanket ban applied

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Peter Laidler

I seemkto recall that these S&P air conversions came under the 'easily converted to metallic cartridge' category by default really as opposed to the main intenmtion. So the blanket ban applied

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Yep, the usual knee jerk reaction Peter, ironically, when I added mine to my FAC back in 2004, I had a call from from my local FEO to enquire if a couple of them could come over to my place and take a look at it, as they hadn't actually had a chance to take a proper look at one in the flesh.

They came over, had a coffee, took a good look and admitted that despite repeated requests for information, they had yet to see an example of one of these illegal Gangland cartridge conversions, to this day I have never seen a picture of one so converted...

Anyone have any pictures to share?

It wasn't the rifles that were the problem, it was the revolvers, in that it was simplicity itself to manufacture a new air cartridge that ......... I won't go on! Not so with the rifle but the ill-thought out definition covers them too so they got the chop by default! That was the story behind them. Saxby and Palmer tried to get the Army involved as a training aid. We had a couple of the high capacity pumps, cartridges and pellets at work. My friend still has one of each and .............. My sister says that financial legislation is jamb packed with thesely formulated and written 'LUC's' = Laws with Unforseen Consequences

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Originally Posted by Peter Laidler

My sister says that financial legislation is jamb packed with thesely formulated and written 'LUC's' = Laws with Unforseen Consequences

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Very well put, my Model 54 is a 5 shot S&W style revolver, .177 calibre and 5 inch barrel..... The cylinder comes pre cut between the chambers, (like the old spec deacs used to be), so unless someone bored out the barrel and made a new cylinder for it, its quite harmless, to be honest.

Even back then, your average criminal could probably buy a Makarov and ammo down the boozer from "big Vern" for a lot less hassle and money than it would be to make an air cartridge revolver go BOOM! (probably blowing your hand off in the process) Like I say, never seen or heard a converted example...

Although the guns themselves were moved over to Sec5, the cartridges and pumps weren't banned.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mrclark303

Model 54 is a 5 shot S&W style revolver, .177 calibre and 5 inch barrel..... The cylinder comes pre cut between the chambers,

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Now THAT'S sad...too bad.

I'd love to see more pictures of the Remington No. 3 converted to .22! Was that a Parker-Hale conversion? Is the receiver milled open? Having been trying to find one of those for years now, without success - if you ever going to part with it, let me know!

In the meantime some pictures of my Danish M/60 .22 conversion of the U.S. M1917 rifle. Only 2000 made with all being officially destroyed, this one somehow survived. And some of my BSA made .22 feed barrel system for the No. 3 rifle!

Here in Italy there is a number of no.1 mk3 converted in Terni to .22 cal. with the Garand rear sight.
They are considered very nice and accurate training rifles. You might find them at roughly 6-800€.
I was about to buy one a few months ago and am still not completely out of this thought.
Just for the fun of shooting it close to home in a 25 meter pistol range.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Promo

Danish M/60 .22 conversion of the U.S. M1917 rifle

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Sure gives one food for thought. That could be done...with some work.

I've started a thread on it some time ago with detailed pictures.

Thanks to mrclark303 I didn't know they were not made until the late 80's. I actually have 2 of them.

For Promo a few pictures of the Remington .22 patt 14 rifle.

The red discs are recoil buffer discs from the 50 cal machine gun, there are 23 in each gun.
Drill a hole in them and they make excellent identification tags.

The only conversion marking is the 10 x on the barrel sleeve.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by 303 Collector

The red discs are recoil buffer discs from the 50 cal machine gun

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If it was placed in my hand I could tell, couldn't tell from the picture. Yes, they won't decay or go to pieces that's for sure.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by 303 Collector

Thanks to mrclark303 I didn't know they were not made until the late 80's. I actually have 2 of them.

For Promo a few pictures of the Remington .22 patt 14 rifle.

The red discs are recoil buffer discs from the 50 cal machine gun, there are 23 in each gun.
Drill a hole in them and they make excellent identification tags.

The only conversion marking is the 10 x on the barrel sleeve.

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Great looking .22 conversion, very nice. Is your second Saxby and Palmer No4 also a Savage by any chance?

From memory I think they also fitted a reduced strength spring in the bolt.

Yep the other Saxby Palmer is also a Savage No4.
One 75CXXXX and the other 96CXXXX.
Sadly before the ban I also had a converted Mk111 and a Patt 14 in air cartridge.
To try to get some money back on them they were deactivated and sold.
I still have two revolvers, a Fox rifle, an Ensign rifle, a Herald rifle and an unknown type
that chambers 45/22 tac's.

The fact they all seem to be Savage is rather interesting in itself, I can only guess S&P imported a batch of Savages from somewhere specifically for the project...

Any interesting markings on them, old proofs etc that might give us a lead??

love to see some pics of the No1 Mk3 and P14 if you had any, did you have then converted yourself?

As I recall the Ensign was the first of the type, (circa 1983) it used air cartridges that were the size of 12 bore cartridges with a grey plastic shell, a mate of mine had one, it went into the grinder during the ban unfortunately.

I have seen an air cartridge Walther PPK "type" pistol, no idea who made that one though...

How may I get you to part with this Remington P.14 .22 conversion? Very nice, thank you for the additional pictures!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Promo

How may I get you to part with this Remington P.14 .22 conversion? Very nice, thank you for the additional pictures!

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I have been working out the details to convert a M1917 Enfield to use a M1922 .22LR Springfield type bolt system. Yes it will be a repeater. To keep you entertained in the mean time. I have attached several pics of the .22LR conversion that I have several of which are prototypes.

Enjoy

--fjruple

Attachment 83631
Prototype .22LR M37 semi-auto Tank Gun setup for Right hand feed

Attachment 83632
Semi-auto C5A1 with Prototype .22LR conversion

Attachment 83633
Semi Auto M1917A1 Browning with M3 .22LR Trainer conversion kit

Attachment 83634
Semi Auto M1919A4 Browning with M4 .22LR Trainer conversion kit

Excellent, I bet they turn a few heads on the range ? Many years ago in Guns Review or Gunmart (maybe some in the UK will remember) there was an article on a .22 belt fed miniature M1919, I think there was a Gatling gun also

Promo and 303 Collector, I'd be interested in some more pics of the P14 bolt etc, most of the conversions I've seen are the ones which have part of the body cut away to enable to feed a round by hand.

I had the barrel and some of the cartridges for the 1919 A4 at one point. The odds of finding enough to be usable was slim and the bolt was a non starter...so I sold them. Nice to see the whole rig complete. A very scarce accessory.

Just "way" too cool fjruple.....:super: