Aside from the obvious and subjective aesthetic appeal of walnut stocks, is there a real reason Beech was only used when war time shortages made it necessary? I've heard some say that Beech warps more easily. Is there any truth to this?
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Aside from the obvious and subjective aesthetic appeal of walnut stocks, is there a real reason Beech was only used when war time shortages made it necessary? I've heard some say that Beech warps more easily. Is there any truth to this?
I'm not so sure that beech does warp more readily. We continued to use beech up until the L1A1 rifles.
Walnut was the standard because of it's reliability in that role for nearly centuries. Other woods were needed due to shortages that developed...
Beech and birch are easily as good of a gunstock wood as walnut.
Guess I said it wrong, I didn't mean they were inferior.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian Dick
Did the seasoning time required have anything to do with the choice of woods used as well as what woods were readily available within the British Isles? Were the woods used for U.K. military stocks during WW2 seasoned in an oven or was there sufficient wood available that had been seasoned in the traditional manner?
They tried kiln-drying it but it wasn't all that successful and still tended to warp. Previously large quantities had been seasoned out of doors under cover in the usual way.
An old stock maker I knew years ago told me the Howe (1939) was the source to go to read everything you needed to know about blank preparation, drying time stock perpetration and stock sealing. A few comments I seem to recall below, in no particular order. He had worked at Jaegers in Jenkintown or learned his craft there, back in the era when this was one of the great shops of the US. In any case as a young fellow I got to listen in on a discussion with this guy at camp Perry on the relative merits of direct wood bedding vs plastic/fiberglass bedding, my interest at the time being dictated by match rifle bedding (M70/M700 actions and M1 rifles).
1) Kiln dried wood does have issues with shrinkage. There is still more moisture in the deep wood than desired. As that changes you can have warping, especially in the forend once finished, as the wood is basically not done drying. Best solution is to allow such wood to try another few months in the attic. (This much I have seen and can verify to be true with Boyd M1903 inlets stocks)
2) Properly dried wood is pretty weather resistant once the end grain is properly sealed. By that he meant that a properly dried wood stock would absorb some moisture in wet weather, but shed it again when once conditions settled. It would not warp. in the get wet/dry cycle, even if soaked, if properly prior prior to final inletting. I seem to recall one of the older chaps I knew disagreed with him and there was a spirited debate on this point based on various military stocks that had been converted to sporter stocks, his point being the end grain was not properly sealed, the other chap felling a lot of M1903A3 stocks would warp due to incorrect quarter sawn blanks and there was nothing you could do to fix it. Actually I might have that backwards, he might have said it was a incorrect blank cut and the military stocks were crap because of that, not sure of the exact details, just a lot of M1903A3 stocks were problematic.
3) I seem to recall on long mannlicher mauser stocks how the walnut blank was cut mattered to the end result. I seem to recall you could tell by any warp after drying the blank if it was a good candidate for a match stock or not.
3) I do not recall the exact method but I seem to recall there was supposed to be a final 3~4month dry period between rough inletting and the final inlet, this being on Mauser based s[porter stocks with a tight fit of the barrel forward of the action body. The stock blank would shrink in that time, or so I seem to recall.
4) He thought the SMLE bedding system as possibly the worst ever invented, but he was a US gunsmith and I am not sure he understood it, though he gave a detailed analysis of why it was bad, though I recall none of it except the nose cap metal to metal contact was a bad idea.
5) Walnut comes in many grades, the less dense walnut is not as good a wood as properly cut Beech or Birch (not sure which). Walnut that grew up in a moist environment was not as dense as Birch from cold climates.
6) He felt that the older rifles with the popular light weight barrels of the 1950s/6os shot a lot better with a good direct wood bedding job than a glass bedded job, had to do with the damping of dense black walnut.
7) The AMU technique of epoxy impregnation into M14 stocks was practiced by gunsmith before that, albeit by heating properly dried stocks, and placing the epoxy/resin on the recoil surfaces and then allowing the cooling stock to absorb same. The technique went back at least to the 1950s.
My brother-in-law is a violin maker and sources and matures his own wood blanks.
I discussed the subject of rifle woodwork warping (particularly with a view to War time mass production) and he he launched into the details...
Well I was lost in minutes quite frankly. Such a complex subject.
I showed him a wartime No4 forend I have that's typically warped and twisted to the right, he took a look, explained about the poor cut, somthing about the direction of fibres in relation to the cut and a very clear lack of maturing was mentioned I think...
I often wonder if the reason you see so many replacement forends on FTRed No4's is because they were found to be warped when removed from store.
After all, many of these rifles were originally manufactured with a mix of the deepest austerity and absolute maximum output...
One can understand why the Germans switched to laminated wood stocks, in the late 1930s, for their K98s.
There are two sorts of wood. That which HAS warped - and that which HASN'T warped........... yet!
I'm constantly amazed at the condition of the stocks on my Sniders- 51 inches of wood on a 3-Band type, and all of mine straight as an arrow after as much as 160 years. Were seasoning practices that much better or, perhaps, the quality of the wood? I have several SMLE's and No. 4's that are corkscrew shaped (and not all wartime in the case of the SMLE's).Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Laidler
Ridolpho
Same on my 2 band volunteer P56 and all the three banders I have had in the past, both percussion and Snider, all straight as a dye, not a hint of warping.
I seem to recall hearing that years and years ago wood was seasoned for a very long time indeed, decades, if it was required for carpentry that needed good quality wood that wouldn't warp or shrink.
Would it be reasonable to assume that much of the suitable Walnut available in the U.K. would have been exhausted during WW1?
This was where I was with my original statement, walnut had been consumed at an exponential rate and other wood needed examination for suitability. Australia is a shining example of the different woods used... Yes, wood needed to be seasoned a bit. Thus Kiln drying...Quote:
Originally Posted by Flying10uk
kiln dried wood warps more easily when exposed to moisture, and is weaker and more brittle.
that pretty much applies to all wood
walnut is excellent but has the added characteristic that it maintains its strength when exposed to oil and some of the other cleaning products used then and now.too much soaking and it will rot eventually
birch and beech are also very good woods and are durable when exposed to oil. they are beautiful in thier own right but stain badly with cleaning and lubricating oils
If you are carefull about how you apply linseed oil you can counter the effects of warping. Be carefull about steaming the wood to unwarp it. lots of patience. Even wet steemed wood can easily split, moreso if it was origonally kiln dried
Awesome... Thanks for all the replys. It satisfied my curiosity and I ordered a Beech stock set for a probable future project. Or if that falls thru a replacement set for my current rifle.
I have heard one or two U.K. traders say that Beech stock sets/parts are getting more difficult to get hold of than Walnut.
a good piece of wood will take up to 6 years to dry out below 4-6% humidity. Thats when it sits up in the rafters here in slower Arizona. Up north 7 plus %. When they get as low as can be expected thats when you seal them with boiled linseed oil. I saw on Y tube where some body wiped down thier walnut stock with walnut oil. I did not believe it but in the salad dressing section of my local safeway they have walnut oil for sale. Go figgure.
Linseed oil works best if its what was origonally used on the wood.
Beech/burch were an expedieant measure, not because they were of a lesser standard/quality than walnut but because walnut takes alot of effort and resources to process. long drying time. Lithgow went thier own way with indigenous flora when thier walnut supply was exausted and none more was forthcomming from England. Winchester ran into a similar problem with walnut on thier m1's. They got stuck using existing supplies to ramp up initial production. early winchester m1's were some of the most beautiful rifles ever.
The German plywood solution came about because thier advanced chemical industry in general and the wood glue side specifically was able to solve the problem and loosen up production bottlenecks.
In 2012 Roger Wedham wrote a book "The 2012 Complete book on Lee Enfield Accurizing" ISBN 978-1-4716-1465-1. in it he addresses issues relating to warped wood and using linseed oil to reverse the warping (page 53).
Quote:
Originally Posted by mike16
The amazing thing about the German Laminate K98 stocks is the fact after 70 years they are still as good as the day they were cut from the sandwich block!
It would be interesting to see a K98 laminated stock that has started to delaminate, presumably some have, but I haven't seen any.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flying10uk
Agreed, I have seen some really poorly stored and battered examples, yet still the Laminate "appears" (proof of the pudding of coarse would be shoot them) serviceable.
The K98 stocks were glued together with a resin based substance called 'Tegofilm', hence the laminate stocks are sometimes referred to as 'tegofilm stocks'. It's essentially just fancy marine ply, but I think it was the first non-water based adhesive for plywood manufacture & so resulted in no risk of warping due to humidity, & as it came in solid sheets, no voids in the structure. The setting process also involved subjecting the laminate to heat & several atmospheres pressure in order to get a very strong bond between the adhesive & the layers of wood.
Of course you're all aware we tried the same thing with #4 wood? Laminate that is...
They started using laminated wood for aeroplane propellers a long time before it was first used on K98 stocks.
Looking around the internet and based on my opinion I have this to offer up:
I believe that machining capability would be one of the first on the list for selecting a wood.
This is a list of common wood species that are rated as excellent for machining. Ash, beech, birch, hard maple, red oak, white oak, and walnut.
Next issue would be wood stability.
First hardness when hit on the side against the grain. (dent-ability)
top to bottom.
1. Hard maple, 2. ash, 3. white oak. 4. beech. 5. red oak, 6. birch, 7. walnut
Second moisture content:
1. Walnut, 2. ash, 3. birch, 4. red oak and hard maple, 5. beech, and 6. white oak
Third is change in volume from green to dry:
1, Walnut, 2. ash, 3. hard maple, 4. white oak, 5. red oak, 6. birch, and 7. beech.
Forth is weight:
1. Birch, 2. walnut, 3. ash, 4. beech, 5. hard maple, 6. red oak, and 7.white oak.
Golf score it out and here is what you get.
1. Ash (however old growth trees are in short supply so this would not be a likely candidate)
2. Walnut (Traditional for good reason)
3. Hard maple (My favorite)
4. Birch (Classic for post war USGI M1s)
5. Beech and the oaks (They come from the same family of trees.)
This probably settles nothing but are worth considering.
So my guess as to why these species show up in stocks is that they machine well. Then probably economics and availability.
No,no...that sounds exactly like the sort of reasoning that's being suggested. That info is probably 300 years old or more and gunmakers have forgotten exactly why it's that way, it just has been proved to be best that way.Quote:
Originally Posted by 3mctoledo
How likely a wood stock would go from dry to wet.
Generally speaking. since there looks to be no clear answer, we should consider open grain verse closed grain. Or the ability to change volume (size etc.) when exposed to the elements.
Open grain, as is oak, ash, mahogany and walnut. (Beech is in the oak family)
Closed grain species include maple, birch, cherry and hickory.
In my opinion an open grain will readily accept water, oil, stains and other things from the environment over closed grain.
Look at a birch or maple stock that are on rifles. Less color etc. penetrates the wood. Just an example in real life objects.
So the change in the stock volumes in maple and birch would be less than for the others such as walnut in the same (Wet or harsh) environment.
When you talk of harsh environments and dry to wet, just think of Malaya....... Mostly beech in my time, dosed in the warm linseed bath but between visits to the workshops it was pretty well permanently wet. So wet that the steel underneath it would severely rust unless it too was slathered in HM point grease. Seen gas cylinders and return spring tubes peppered with rust holes and No4 and 5 barrels deeply corroded
The Germans tried to build a wooden wonder (Mosquito) using the Tegofilm recipe or one very similar they had progressed fairly well and had flying prototypes until bomber command destroyed the only factory making the glue with the recipes along with how the processes were done which ended their attempt to mimic one of the allied aircraft they well and truly feared.