Sterling L2A3 NZ contract

Hi all,
just thought I'd upload some pics of my Sterling Mk4 L2A3. Old Spec UK Deact It was my final purchase before the Old Spec sales ban.

UK deactivated by Worldwide Arms it seems to be in pretty good condition, I'm guessing that the smooth finish is original ex works (Suncorite ?) as the markings all look nice and deep. The only negative is the horrible blob of weld on one of the barrel screws and the body (as seen in the picture), but I guess there's no fixing that.

Despite some serious effort I have failed massively over the last couple of year to pick up Guns of Dagenham (refusing to pay the £400 or more it's now going for) so its one of the weapons I don't have much info on, but from what I can work out it was made in approx. March 1959 ? (please correct or confirm if you know)

can anyone also confirm if the original NZ batch of January '59 was an order for 2000 and were they all this smooth finish? and if they ordered any more subsequently? (800 more at some point?)

The Mag it came with is the version that has "Magazine Sterling 9mm 34 Rds" on the spine, is this the correct variant for an NZ export.

One final request for help, it seem to have the ejector retaining grub screw missing, is there anyone in the UK who sells them ?

I'd be interested to know why so many of the NZ guns ended up back in the UK for deactivation, I'm guessing direct from NZ as army surplus, or did they perhaps end up back with our army first for use somehow?

many thanks

Quote:

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Originally Posted by lugerfan

Hi all,
just thought I'd upload some pics of my Sterling Mk4 L2A3. Old Spec UK Deact It was my final purchase before the Old Spec sales ban.

UK deactivated by Worldwide Arms it seems to be in pretty good condition, I'm guessing that the smooth finish is original ex works (Suncorite ?) as the markings all look nice and deep. The only negative is the horrible blob of weld on one of the barrel screws and the body (as seen in the picture), but I guess there's no fixing that.

Despite some serious effort I have failed massively over the last couple of year to pick up Guns of Dagenham (refusing to pay the £400 or more it's now going for) so its one of the weapons I don't have much info on, but from what I can work out it was made in approx. March 1959 ? (please correct or confirm if you know)

can anyone also confirm if the original NZ batch of January '59 was an order for 2000 and were they all this smooth finish? and if they ordered any more subsequently? (800 more at some point?)

The Mag it came with is the version that has "Magazine Sterling 9mm 34 Rds" on the spine, is this the correct variant for an NZ export.

One final request for help, it seem to have the ejector retaining grub screw missing, is there anyone in the UK who sells them ?

I'd be interested to know why so many of the NZ guns ended up back in the UK for deactivation, I'm guessing direct from NZ as army surplus, or did they perhaps end up back with our army first for use somehow?

many thanks

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I used to own KR26047 (can't remember the NZ number) and that was finished in Park. I'm pretty sure they were all standard commercial guns with crackle finish and if they are in park or black Sunc then they have been refinished during service.

Thanks BP, wasn't sure if they were originally allsupplied with a commercial crackle finish, all smooth,or a mismatch of both if they had been supplied in different batches / orders over time.

Interesting with this one the metal under the finish doesn't look as if it's been blasted back and the serial numbers etc look reasonably sharp so it doesnt look like it's a cheap refinish done by a back lane workshop like some of the deacts I have.

I haven't seen enough sterlings in hand to really know though...if only I had "The book".....

They were supplied to NZ in crinkle finish. It seems to me that yours has been stripped off and just the original phosphate finish remains

The ejector screw is simplicity itself to make. You just need a philips headed bolt of the correct UNF thread and machine the short shoulder on it. Sterling bought them in as that and machined the shoulder.

NZ guns were sold to a UK dealer, originally to be sold on as serviceable weapons to other nations. But by then, SMG's were obsolete. So they remained unsold until they went out to the deact market where nobody really wanted them either!

Thanks Peter, that explains why the finish looks quite thin I wonder if that was the uk dealer you mention or during its military life somehow. Definately the sten's poor relation in the deact collectible stakes, Yet it makes a nice comparison to my stens.

I'll see if I can find a suitable bolt

So what was the end of the SMG line ? Must confess to have little knowledge of the more recent stuff post Ww2.

The SA80 and other cheap and cheerful assault rifles spelled the end of the L2 in the UK, The Steyr F88 for the NZers and the AK spelled the end of the SMG in those nations that previously purchased from us.

Incidentally, mossie repellent would burn off the crackle finish but not the sunkorite. Why....., I don't know as both are spirit based oven cured paints. Any NZ guns we had in Malaya just went through the pommy base workshop and came back plain stain black and if they were scrapped for any reason they'd be replaced with standard UK UF or US guns

I remember along time ago having all sorts of problems with a scratched dash on my MG Midget, never did take the brave pill and try and reverb the finish, probably for the best :0)

Re you comment about NZ guns being replaced with uk etc guns, - does that imply a degree of interchange of hardware between the counties ? . Were you working for the UK at that time, or seconded to NZ ? Apologies for not knowing exactly how it all worked out there, I really need to do some reading about that time

If you still have the MG you could kill two birds with one stone see link below for a can of crackle finish...

VHT Black Wrinkle Crackle Finish (310ml) | Frost Restoration

Thanks - Sadly the MG is long gone. - I miss that car...... :0(

Quote:

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Originally Posted by lugerfan

One final request for help, it seem to have the ejector retaining grub screw missing, is there anyone in the UK who sells them ?

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It’s just a standard grub screw, available at local hardware stores here. PM me your address and I will drop one in the mail.

I don't think it is a standard grub screw Vince. Feel free to correct me, but the ejector screw has a small round locator on the end that fits into a corresponding hole in the mag housing. The grub screws were brought in as grub screws but were modified at Sterling then phosphated.

Luger fan, thread 7. All Ordnance stores, weaponry, ammunition, clothing etc etc were pooled stores there. So while you started a tour there with NZ commercial Sterlings you could end up with UK ones or vice verca. Same as rifles, Australian/UK made Land Rovers, Ammunition

Thanks vince - PM Sent on the offchance that it may be correct, but don't got to to much trouble if it's a pain. Dont have access to a lathe etc, but I can ask a chap at work to modify it if it is a simple job.

Thanks Peter, that's interesting info, hadn't considered that at all. I guess the next question is what happens when they all went home, would it have been possible that Nz weapons etc (where they were almost common models as in this instance) could have ended up in uk stocks, or did they have a big sort out, which I guess would have been easy enough where they are marked such as the l2a3.

I presume there's no way that the British stores system could cope with a bunch of NZ l2a3's getting in the mix long term?

To be honest, it didn't make any difference what rifles or SMG's went where. The UK ended up with loads of Australian or NZ rifles and no doubt they ended up with UK made ones too. It wasn't uncommon to find them all over the place. Just a feature of mixed Ordnance stores. To the blanket stackers at Ordnance, a rifle was a rifle and an SMG was an SMG. But in Malaya, once the first AR15's came on stream - followed by the decent M-16's, the UK NZ and Australia returned their Sterlings, Owens and F1's to Ordnance. Never saw them after that

Ammo was all mixed too from NZ CAC made, UK made and Australia and 556 from the US

I guess the advantage of a common weapons specification :0)

You’re right, Peter. It’s called a Hex Drive Full Dog Point Socket Set Screw.



https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...g20point-1.jpg

.......... I couldn't for the life of me think of what the parallel part of the screw was called. Yep, that's it..... dog point!

I think 'Screw Thingy' is a bit more catchy!

Thingamajig (Thing-a-ma-jig) or whatchamacallit (what-cha-ma-call-it) are two I was brought up with, of course put a Scouse , Geordie, Glaswegian accent in with these two and folk think your talking double dutch......

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Peter Laidler

They were supplied to NZ in crinkle finish. It seems to me that yours has been stripped off and just the original phosphate finish remains

The ejector screw is simplicity itself to make. You just need a philips headed bolt of the correct UNF thread and machine the short shoulder on it. Sterling bought them in as that and machined the shoulder.

NZ guns were sold to a UK dealer, originally to be sold on as serviceable weapons to other nations. But by then, SMG's were obsolete. So they remained unsold until they went out to the deact market where nobody really wanted them either!

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I guess all the ex NZ L2A3's must have been refurbished a few times during their service Peter.

I think all the NZ contact examples I have seen have always been Suncorite finished.

I always assumed it was only the Faz L2's that had the crinkle finish applied, you learn something every day!

It's funny, but in the last five years or so, old spec L2 Sterling's​ "were" fetching strong money, especially if they were the sympathetically deactivated examples chopped by the likes of Charnwood Ordinance.

lugerfan, your deac Sterling, old spec does look to be in lovely condition and a good buy for you. There did seem to be a number of collectors who were "panicked" into selling or down sizing their collection just before the 2nd of May. If the law ever changes so that older spec deacs can be legally sold/traded you could very well see a significant increase in value of your Sterling over what you paid for it.

I paid less than £100, if memory serves me correctly, for The Guns of Dagenham not that long ago. Just keep your eyes skinned, especially on eBay.

According to Peter's excellent 'Guns of Dagenham', NZ purchased 2006 L2A3's, 5 L34A1's, 776 bayonets, and 16,030 magazines. I remember seeing L2A3 Sterlings in 1959, and I first fired one as a cadet in 1961 as part of a 'Barracks Week' fire-power demo on the school 300 yard range (that was my prize for winning the Bren stripping competition). They were all crinkle finish and in the KR serial number range. The Waiouru Army Museum kept about 50 in their armoury after they were withdrawn from service. The 'turret heads' used them on the range from time to time until they got their short AUG's. The Museum has been selling them off at auction (4-5 per year) for a few years now. I have one in my safe just to keep my Mk 5 company.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by lugerfan

Hi all,
just thought I'd upload some pics of my Sterling Mk4 L2A3. Old Spec UK Deact It was my final purchase before the Old Spec sales ban.

UK deactivated by Worldwide Arms it seems to be in pretty good condition, I'm guessing that the smooth finish is original ex works (Suncorite ?) as the markings all look nice and deep. The only negative is the horrible blob of weld on one of the barrel screws and the body (as seen in the picture), but I guess there's no fixing that.

Despite some serious effort I have failed massively over the last couple of year to pick up Guns of Dagenham (refusing to pay the £400 or more it's now going for) so its one of the weapons I don't have much info on, but from what I can work out it was made in approx. March 1959 ? (please correct or confirm if you know)

can anyone also confirm if the original NZ batch of January '59 was an order for 2000 and were they all this smooth finish? and if they ordered any more subsequently? (800 more at some point?)

The Mag it came with is the version that has "Magazine Sterling 9mm 34 Rds" on the spine, is this the correct variant for an NZ export.

One final request for help, it seem to have the ejector retaining grub screw missing, is there anyone in the UK who sells them ?

I'd be interested to know why so many of the NZ guns ended up back in the UK for deactivation, I'm guessing direct from NZ as army surplus, or did they perhaps end up back with our army first for use somehow?

many thanks

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Really well done for buying one while you had the chance, they form an important part of a British Military firearm collection.

I think the ex NZ L2A3's were imported to the UK along with a few thousand ex L1A1's and a very small number of L2A1 Section Automatics​.

As Peter said, the vast majority of these Firearms were deactivated or reduced to parts kits for onward sale to the USA.

NZ stopped property marking firearms with the NZ stamp and census number in 1960. So any post 1960 batches won't be marked and you would need the good book to find out what S/N's fell into what contact.

A book I also wished I had too!

Well, the wife's put my copy on eBay a couple of days back, I was having a big clear out and she did a bunch of manuals on last week. Unfortunately she's seen how much US dealers are asking for it so the start price is eye wateringly high.

Brilliant book but I'd not used it for several years, interests having turned to other areas, so it's going along with a lot of other stuff.

I've a old spec ex Kiwi Sterling myself, when I got it there looked to be about 5 layers of paint on it.

ATB

Tom

Maybe Luger fan should compile serial numbers and see where it goes.

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Originally Posted by Brit plumber

Maybe Luger fan should compile serial numbers and see where it goes.

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Sounds like a good idea sir - I'll see what I can find on the net first with uk deacts etc and get a list together.
Any thoughts of what to record? serial number, nz "serial number", finish, deact / live - anything else?

I guess start a new post that people can then add to if they see fit.?

Do you mean a list of NZ census numbers or a list of NZ KR numbers? The acquisition/disposal list might be readily available from NZ Army archives. My boss in NZ came to the UK in order to oversee the production of the UK guns and then spent time at the REME Training Centre putting what he had learned into practice, teaching new REME Armourers and apprentices. Then went back to NZ to teach the NZ Army about them as the NZ guns plus spares holdings came into the big Ordnance Depot at Ngaruawahia. A TRUE Gent with no airs and graces.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by lugerfan

Sounds like a good idea sir - I'll see what I can find on the net first with uk deacts etc and get a list together.
Any thoughts of what to record? serial number, NZicon "serial number", finish, deact / live - anything else?

I guess start a new post that people can then add to if they see fit.?

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Here's mine to get you started... https://www.milsurps.com/showthread.php?t=56495

---------- Post added at 02:33 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:31 PM ----------

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Peter Laidler

Do you mean a list of NZ census numbers or a list of NZ KR numbers? The acquisition/disposal list might be readily available from NZ Army archives. My boss in NZ came to the UK in order to oversee the production of the UK guns and then spent time at the REME Training Centre putting what he had learned into practice, teaching new REME Armourers and apprentices. Then went back to NZ to teach the NZ Army about them as the NZ guns plus spares holdings came into the big Ordnance Depot at Ngaruawahia. A TRUE Gent with no airs and graces.

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Unfortunately Peter, I think the old Census number information has been lost/destroyed, I'm sure Kevin and Woodsie can expand on this.

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Originally Posted by tombear

Unfortunately she's seen how much US dealers are asking for it so the start price is eye wateringly high.

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I have checked how much I paid last year for my copy of "The Guns of Dagenham" and it was a little more than I thought @ just over £170.

They are worth what anyone is prepared to pay for them, like anything else.

I borrowed a copy of The Guns of Dagenham through an inter-library loan via my local library a few months back. I think it came from Glasgow University Library.

Thanks - good idea, I'll check with my local library to see if they can do the same.